ShoesFest - #shoes logs for ShoesDay 1

14:11

>> _why changed the topic of #shoes to: as it happens, today is shoes day // http://ihack.us/2008/07/10/shoesfest-2008 // and this one: http://is.gd/Quz

14:12

<@_why> mic check mic check

14:12

<@_why> testing 1 2

14:12

<@_why> triangle rectangle hex-a-gooone

14:12

< elib> loud and clear

14:12

<@_why> very good

14:13

<@_why> hey elib, welcome to shoes day

14:13

<@_why> and hey everyone, welcome to shoes day

14:13

< eki_> happy shoes day : ))

14:13

< elib> part I

14:13

< eljay> *pops his head up*

14:15

< elib> _why, are there known problems with compiling latest git-Shoes on VS2005?

14:15

<@_why> okay, the first order of the day is to get you all a brand new build

14:15

< elib> aha

14:15

< MadX`> I'll be there in a minute, just have to finish my Card Fighters Clash game :D

14:16

<@_why> elib: probably, i imagine so

14:16

< Bluebie> Oh hiya _why

14:16

< Bluebie> hows the loud lady with the radio situation?

14:17

< MadX`> hey _why, welcome to shoes day

14:17

< elib> _why: ok, maybe we'll iron them out

14:17

<@_why> but before the build, is there any one who's on the powerpc platform?

14:18

< MadX`> latest shoes built.

14:19

<@_why> anyone who's no on windows xp/vista, osx 10.4/10.5 intel or linux i686?

14:20

< gdp> here I am on Linux Ubuntu i686

14:20

<@_why> that's great, any flavor of linux on i686 will do

14:20

< MadX`> hey, have we got some backup bot ?

14:21

<@_why> good idea, anyone keeping a log?

14:21

< MadX`> me :)

14:21

< eki_> I'm on linux (but, I just built from git, so don't worry about me)

14:21

< MadX`> I'm already logging everything

14:22

< eki_> I might test on osx, powerpc later today... depending on how the coding goes

14:23

<@_why> that would be totally sensational, shoes is lagging behind on powerpc and i could use some help with it

14:25

< MadX`> so, why is there so many untalking people ?

14:25

< eki_> no problem : ))

14:26

<@_why> yeah, would it be okay if everyone said what platform they're testing today?

14:26

< ChrisColon> (because they are in shock and awe) I have an old PPC iBook which I could power up, I am currently on my Intel Mac

14:26

 * mrtsunami talks.

14:26

 * eljay is on vista

14:26

 * mrtsunami is on Windows XP Media Center Edition

14:26

<@_why> i think if i have a list of what you're on at the start, it'll save me asking ad nauseam

14:27

 * elib trudges along with XP Pro SP2

14:28

< ChrisColon> Currently: Mac OS X Leopard, Intel; can switch to Windows XP SP2, Ubuntu Hardy Heron and Mac OS X Leopard on PPC to test

14:29

< Bluebie> I can test ppc 10.4 if you'd like, there's an old iMac g4 sitting right behind me :)

14:29

<@_why> certainly whatever is convenient for you

14:30

< Bluebie> somewhat distracted by personal life stuff for now though

14:31

< MadX`> _why, I'm on Debian Testing

14:31

< elib> I really wanted to make something Shoesy with the CamSpace API, but SWIG and I are not on the best of terms

14:31

< Bluebie> is there a new build out now or is that coming?

14:33

<@_why> a fresh build is in the oven and i am just testing it with a toothpick

14:33

< Bluebie> neato ^_^

14:33

 * Bluebie noms on her curry

14:34

< mrtsunami> _why, are you snacking?

14:35

< MadX`> so, what are the plans for today ? Massive bug squashing ?

14:36

< MadX`> squishing*

14:36

<@_why> no, but i am closing a heating vent with my foot

14:37

<@_why> the plan is to put out three sets of builds through out the day

14:37

<@_why> every six hours or so, i imagine

14:37

< MadX`> ok

14:37

<@_why> so, when the builds come out, poke at them like crazy

14:37

< elib> quite an imagination

14:37

<@_why> and between that, do whatever you like

14:38

<@_why> or, alternatively, just do whatever you like the whole time

14:39

<@_why> this is day is mostly for you guys, so you can ask questions, talk about shoes issues that are bothering you

14:40

< MadX`> I'm quickly running through the samples to see if there are bugs in them

14:40

< mrtsunami> _why, even if you're a complete noob?

14:40

< mrtsunami> (as I am)

14:41

< elib> +1 for noob population

14:41

< MadX`> yeah I think that's also a goal of this day :D

14:41

<@_why> oh especially if you are a complete newb

14:41

< eljay> +0.5 for noob population

14:42

<@_why> this goes out to all the newbs in their motorcycle sidecars

14:43

< elib> let's form a line according to height and favorite music genre

14:44

<@_why> okay osx builds:

14:44

<@_why> (video) http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r799-intel.dmg

14:44

<@_why> (novideo) http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r799-intel-novideo.dmg

14:44

<@_why> those are intel-only

14:45

< Bluebie> neato ^_^

14:45

< MadX`> who, I've just tested expert-tankspank and it's amazingly fast ! If this is due to new code, I must congratulate you _why

14:46

<@_why> hey thanks MadX`, that's very kind

14:46

<@_why> i do still have a long way to go with speed still, though

14:47

< Bluebie> i just tried to open my chat client in the video one, the icop appears then disapears immidiately!

14:47

< Bluebie> no crashlog or anything

14:48

< Bluebie> I'll try some console-fu against it, maybe I can make it divulge some secrets

14:48

< Bluebie> also if any of you would like a copy..

14:48

< Bluebie> the chat client doesn't actually work :P

14:48

<@_why> do the samples work? or the manual?

14:48

< Bluebie> but a window should at least open!

14:49

< Bluebie> hmm, no

14:49

< Bluebie> even opening it without a ruby file open and shut

14:49

< ChrisColon> same here

14:49

< Bluebie> "LSOpenFromURLSpec() failed with error -10810 for the file /Applications/Shoes.app/Contents/MacOS." comes out on the console..

14:49

< Bluebie> or terminal, rather

14:51

< Bluebie> trying to open an included sample yeilds same result

14:51

< jawbroken> this might help: http://www.nopaste.com/p/aM1ClcJU6

14:52

< Bluebie> I think that's more because the ./shoes script wasn't used, which seems to do some magic to make things work

14:54

<@_why> yep, that's it jawbroken, missing libx264

14:55

< MadX`> could someone remind me the command to build with video support

14:55

< MadX`> rake VIDEO=1 ?

14:56

< Bluebie> huh o..o

14:56

< Bluebie> but doesn't shoes always break if you use shoes-bin or shoes-launch instead of the 'shoes' shell script on mac os?

14:56

<@_why> yep, that's it

14:57

< MadX`> looks like it doesn't work :/ But first I'll check deps ;)

14:58

< jawbroken> i was just double clicking the icon there, by the way, worked last mailing list build

14:59

< MadX`> deps are ok

14:59

< Bluebie> ooh o_o

14:59

<@_why> okay here we go

14:59

<@_why> http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r799.2-intel.dmg

15:00

< MadX`> Okay so after some tests, here's what I've noticed :

15:00

<@_why> win32 builds:

15:00

< MadX`> expert-minesweeper: completely screwed when switching levels

15:00

< MadX`> simple-menu: segfault.

15:00

<@_why> (video) http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r799.exe

15:00

< MadX`> and video support seems to be broken on my install

15:00

<@_why> (novideo) http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r799-novideo.exe

15:02

<@_why> powerpc: (novideo) http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r799-ppc-novideo.dmg

15:02

<@_why> linux: (novideo) http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r798-novideo.run

15:02

< MadX`> http://pastie.org/231953 for the segfault

15:03

< Bluebie> This new build works great on my mac ^_^

15:04

< elib> _why, I'm not wild about the unchangable default dir that shoes installs itself into on Windows

15:04

< Bluebie> _why, I'm still not wild about the rather crummy scrolling support on OS-X

15:04

<@_why> okay, good, MadX` i'm seeing the same

15:05

< Bluebie> the only other mac app that scrolls like this is... *shuvver*... mozilla <_<

15:05

< elib> this TankSpank game is AMAZING

15:05

<@_why> elib: you like to store your stuff outside of Program Files?

15:05

<@_why> do you mean scroll wheel Bluebie?

15:06

< Bluebie> I mean like if you use a mighty mouse or a trackpad, neither of which have wheels per say.. but both send wheel events I suppose o_o

15:06

< elib> why: outside of Common Files, for sure. NSIS lets you prompt for dir, with default

15:06

< Bluebie> these input devices scroll one pixel at a time, not in large chunks or numbers of 'lines'

15:07

<@_why> Bluebie: it's too fast right? like it's like sliding around on an ice level in a video game?

15:07

< Bluebie> not so much too fast

15:07

< Bluebie> well it is too fast

15:07

<@_why> elib: okay, great, i'll add that

15:07

< Bluebie> but more it seems to kind of wait for you to scroll a certain amount of pixels and then suddenly scrolls a huge chunk

15:08

< elib> _why, I can help with NSIS, I recently did some stuff with it. Looking at your .nsi file now

15:08

<@_why> brilliant, thankyou eli

15:09

< Bluebie> I would guestimate it's waiting till I scroll down about 20-30 pixels or so and then jumps about 50-60 in the windows sort of 'x amount of lines' style of scrolling

15:10

< Bluebie> though I think the windows API's give off some suggestion as to how many pixels exactly to scroll too, I remember seeing something like that somewhere when I was reading about windows support of horizontal scrolling

15:10

< MadX`> for the minesweeper bug I reported, I haven't tested if it was a Shoes bug or a bug relative to the app itself

15:10

< Inan> :D

15:10

<@_why> okay elib, Bluebie, those are noted in ditz

15:10

< Bluebie> I don't think shoes is scrolling as manically fast as it used to though.. this seems more bareable

15:11

< Bluebie> neat ^_^

15:11

<@_why> MadX`: it's a big in the minesweeper app

15:11

< MadX`> ok

15:11

< Bluebie> is it just me or is the font rendering suddenly a lot nativer on os-x? :)

15:12

< elib> where is this Ditz?

15:12

<@_why> it's in the bugs/ folder when you check out with git

15:13

< Bluebie> be good if the text beside each checkbox on the shoes packager window caused the checkbox to toggle when clicked

15:13

< MadX`> also, as we reported on the ML, widgets aren't working that well :/

15:14

< Bluebie> also, how quick should packaging be? what should we expect means 'it's dead' time wise?

15:14

< Bluebie> it seems still dead to me, bummer. Nice progress bar though. Makes the rest of the packager look ugly

15:15

<@_why> did it make the exe, dmg, run files?

15:16

< Bluebie> where's it supposed to make them? in same folder as source .rb file?

15:16

<@_why> yah, right next to it

15:16

< Bluebie> I only tried dmg.. there is a dmg!

15:16

< Bluebie> awesome, it worked!

15:17

< eljay> where is this packagermajig?

15:17

< Bluebie> could packager also build shy's?

15:17

<@_why> eljay: start shoes with `shoes -p`

15:17

<@_why> sure Bluebie! definitely

15:17

< eljay> aha!

15:18

< ChrisColon> hangs for me while "working on a .run for Linux", it created a .run file, but it's only 12 kb. The .exe is 82kb and the .dmg is 52kb

15:18

<@_why> it's done then

15:18

<@_why> the .run is smaller

15:18

< ChrisColon> ah, great ^^ That's the #1 thing I was waiting for, working packaging :)

15:18

<@_why> the closing screen needs to be finished, definitely on the list for today

15:19

< eljay> damn that's a nice progress bar

15:19

< Bluebie> might be niftier to put the shoes app in a zip than a dmg

15:19

< Bluebie> I know dmg's are kind of the standard, but with a zip, when it gets downloaded by safari it silently magically unzips and you get a nice .app there you can run without fiddling about with mounting and unmounting stuff

15:20

< ChrisColon> Safari does the same for DMG files, if the dmg has that option set

15:20

< Bluebie> ooh

15:20

< Bluebie> set that option then!

15:20

< Bluebie> stuff zip :P

15:20

<@_why> yeah it would be nice to really fill out the packager with a lot more options

15:20

< Bluebie> and pretty pictures, that thing is a blight on the beauty that is shoes

15:20

< Bluebie> a shortcut key for the manual would also be nifty

15:20

< eljay> does the packager actually do anything? it just sits there looking purdy

15:21

< MadX`> be back later

15:21

< Bluebie> eljay: yeah, it sits there looking hung

15:21

< ChrisColon> An option that would be really really great would be the ability to include extra files inside the .dmg, like a manual or a license

15:21

< Bluebie> but it actually has done the packaging, look in the folder where your thing you're packaging is in

15:21

<@_why> try ⌘-?

15:21

<@_why> command-?

15:21

< Bluebie> that's console..

15:22

<@_why> oh i think command-slash is console

15:22

< Bluebie> no, command-shift-? just makes the help menu open and puts focus in the leopardy search boxy thing

15:23

< Bluebie> can we disable that leopardy search box thing since it's useless in shoes?

15:23

< ChrisColon> command-? works for me

15:23

< elib> ok, I'm just going to let go of git right now, it is too much hackfulness for one day

15:23

< Bluebie> ChrisColon: you on tiger?

15:23

< gdp> how to run ./shoes-0.r798-novideo.run on linux

15:23

< ChrisColon> Bluebie: No, on Leopard 10.5.4

15:23

< Bluebie> weird

15:24

< gdp> I get some erro in shoes console

15:24

<@_why> gdp: try `./shoes-0.r798-novideo.run -- --help`

15:24

< jawbroken> command-? (command-shift-/) works as Bluebie described, for me

15:25

<@_why> oh and send me that error, for sure

15:25

< Bluebie> if anything was going to make the manual open, it aught to show in the menu anyway, and nothing shoes for manual

15:26

<@_why> they must reserve command-? for the leopard help

15:26

< Bluebie> indeededly

15:26

< ChrisColon> I'm on german Leopard, maybe that's why it works for me

15:26

< ChrisColon> different keyboard layout

15:26

< Bluebie> aha!

15:26

< Bluebie> does german keyboard not have a key with both / and ? on it?

15:27

<@_why> you're going to have to move to german to get that fixed, blue

15:27

< ChrisColon> Nope. I have the ? on the ß key :)

15:27

< Bluebie> I'd rather learn semaphore

15:28

< Bluebie> then I could have interesting one sided conversations with planes

15:31

< Bluebie> this new shoes does crazy things with scrolling

15:31

<@_why> okay so you guys who are using the packager

15:32

<@_why> is the stuff it's spitting out working for you?

15:32

<@_why> hollow DrErnie

15:33

< ChrisColon> Works

15:33

< eljay> works fine

15:33

<@_why> i should also mention that building dmgs under windows generally crashes shoes

15:34

<@_why> windows can do exe and run okay

15:34

< Bluebie> works for me ^_^

15:34

<@_why> and linux and osx are fine with all three

15:34

<@_why> and i got exes working on powerpc yesterday

15:35

< Bluebie> @_why check out the crazy scrolling action on leopard (and maybe others) when running shoes-chat-client.rb from examples in http://github.com/Bluebie/legs/tarball/master

15:35

<@_why> so it should be okay with all three

15:35

< Bluebie> scroll down and crazyness ensues

15:35

< eljay> it didn't crash when i tried building dmg on windows but it just did nothing

15:35

<@_why> eljay: so it didn't actually make any files?

15:36

< eljay> nope, .exe works fine but dmg just sits there

15:37

<@_why> so you're trying to open the dmg on a mac and it won't go

15:37

< eljay> oh i'm not trying to run them, just testing the packager

15:38

<@_why> i would bet that if i can fix the crash i'm seeing, it'll starting working for you as well

15:39

<@_why> some bad salami is gumming up the works

15:40

< eljay> just packaged up class-book and it fails to open the yaml file

15:41

<@_why> mrtsunami: you still there?

15:41

< mrtsunami> _why, yes, I am

15:41

< mrtsunami> (no pun intended)

15:42

<@_why> tell me, would it help if we had a separate channel for people who are just learning shoes?

15:43

< DrErnie> Updated th Getting Started page to link to recent builds and _why's common questions: http://ihack.us/2008/07/10/shoesfest-2008/

15:43

<@_why> i want to keep debugging, but i think the bug reports would interrupt a more casual howto discussion

15:43

< mrtsunami> _why, I really don't think it makes too much of a difference.

15:44

< mrtsunami> I'm happy here, and I don't think you could debug to the point where I'd not be happy.

15:44

<@_why> okay, perfeck

15:44

<@_why> so, mrtsunami, and anyone else new to shoes, is there anything you want to start learning?

15:45

<@_why> or should we just start with how to write a simple prog and get it going?

15:45

< mrtsunami> _why, I just got back from the library, I'm installing at the moment. :P

15:45

< eki_> is there anyway to get the fill/stroke for a Shape?

15:46

< richardmonette> @why a really good thing to show how to do is use threads to keep a responsive UI during long processes

15:46

< eki_> also, is it okay to stash stuff in a Shape's style array (eg, if I want to attach a custom flag to a Shap for my own purposes?)

15:46

<@_why> there isn't but that needs to be added, i actually played with that a bit yesterday

15:46

< richardmonette> thats the biggest problem ive had with shoes

15:46

<@_why> yes eki_, you totally can

15:47

<@_why> it's true, threads can be a huge nuisance with shoes, depending on the platform

15:47

< eki_> okay, I can use that instead of fill/stroke to keep track of what I have / haven't done to a shape : ))

15:47

< ChrisColon> +1 for threading, using threads crashes Shoes really often for me, it would be great to know if it's because I'm doing it wrong or because it's a bug

15:47

< ak_avenger> i've tried using threads before, not in shoes, and I think I don't understand how they work

15:47

< Bluebie> I think my next tiny github project will be a shoes addon to do jquery sort of css style selection against shoes dom.. use :id styles and junk :P

15:48

<@_why> okay, three votes for threads is good enough for me

15:48

< richardmonette> im not 100% sure threads is the best way to achieve a responsive UI during long running processes but its what ive been doing so dar

15:48

< DrErnie> _why: you might want to "cache" a collection of common newbie questions on a wiki page or something, as they come up

15:48

< Bluebie> threads crash shoes? well that explains why my chat client crashes so much!

15:48

<@_why> okay, yeah, let's do that DrErnie

15:49

< tunys> oh, hey it's _why

15:49

 * tunys has to go take a shower

15:49

< Bluebie> Hiya tunys

15:49

 * mrtsunami makes bad shoes pun and suggest tunys does so with shoes.

15:50

< ChrisColon> Bluebie: I used threads in 3 Shoes apps I wrote, and in one it works flawlessly after some tweaking here and there, so it doesn't have to crash, but in the other two apps I wasn't able to make it work

15:50

<@_why> so ruby threads are green threads, they aren't actual system threads, let's start with that

15:50

< Bluebie> The soundtrack to _why's poignant guide is also a good soundtrack to Shoes

15:50

<@_why> what ruby does is set up a system alarm

15:50

<@_why> and every time the alarm fires, it switches threads

15:50

< tunys> hey Bluebie, see ya later

15:51

< richardmonette> im assuming all the normal race conditions and data sharing issues affect ruby threads? even if they are 'green threads'?

15:51

<@_why> the alarm is sort of like a signal

15:51

< Bluebie> richardmonette: yes indeedy

15:51

< Bluebie> but without the benifits of stuff going quick on multicore chips

15:51

<@_why> like when you press ctrl-c and your app receives an interrupt signal

15:51

< richardmonette> does ruby have mutexes, signalling etc?

15:52

<@_why> no, actually, you don't get all of the same race conditions with ruby threads

15:52

< ak_avenger> race conditions^

15:52

<@_why> ruby threads are a bit safer in reality than normal threads

15:52

< Bluebie> you don't? news to me!

15:52

< Sobe> test

15:52

< Bluebie> good news day ^_^

15:52

<@_why> i mean yes you get race conditions

15:52

< richardmonette> so for example, two threads can count up the same variable and youd get the expected results as opposed to the regular threading mixups?

15:52

<@_why> but you don't see data sharing violations as frequently

15:53

<@_why> no, that sort of race condition still happens, for sure

15:53

< richardmonette> ah ok

15:53

< Bluebie> is it threadsafe to have an array and push an object in to it, then .delete it out?

15:54

< richardmonette> i made an app that gets flickr images and downloads them locally, which can take a while so threads needed

15:54

< richardmonette> it works fine, but there isnt a tutorial on it or anything

15:54

< richardmonette> so i just stumbled blindly around until it worked

15:54

<@_why> Bluebie: unpredictable, you probably want a mutex

15:55

< Bluebie> when a timer block runs, is that running in a ruby thread, a native thread, or is the main thread stoping for a while to do it?

15:55

< Bluebie> a mutex? o_o

15:55

<@_why> that sounds cool, richardmonette, and i have some good news related to that

15:55

< elib> OS-style mutex???

15:55

< gdp> shoes-0.r798-novideo.run: most of the samples files are running fine , shoes working on Linux

15:55

<@_why> when a timer block (or any event) runs, it runs in the main thread

15:55

< Bluebie> I shall read about mutex's!

15:56

<@_why> everything runs in the main thread unless you start a thread yourself

15:56

<@_why> however, i don't intend for shoes to always be like that!

15:56

< richardmonette> it would be nice if shoes images supported web urls instead of having to resort to ruby downloader

15:56

< Bluebie> so there's just some kind of a 'main loop' type thing going over those things?

15:56

< Bluebie> seems like kids having to learn about mutex's to use timers right would be antishoesian

15:56

<@_why> shoes does support web urls as of about a month ago

15:56

< richardmonette> looks like i need to update!

15:57

< ak_avenger> what if the timers started their own threads, automatically?

15:57

<@_why> you're right, bluebie, that's exactly why i am hoping to move more of the gui into other threads

15:58

<@_why> timers are totally free to start their own threads

15:58

< Bluebie> in chap 3 - the parts of ruby + chunky bacon, on the soundtrack to _why's poignant guide, is that mouthorgany thing a sample from an old Gorillaz song or an actual instrument? I like it!

15:58

< Bluebie> anything that reminds me of The Gorillaz is generally good though :P

15:59

<@_why> oh uh it's a melodica

15:59

< Bluebie> _why: I don't understand how getting more of the UI in to threads helps the threadsafeyness issue

15:59

< Bluebie> ooh that's neat!

15:59

<@_why> let's talk about the challenges on each platform really quick

16:00

< Bluebie> the UI already is in the main thread O_o

16:00

<@_why> so ruby's green threads and all your windows are all really in one thread

16:00

<@_why> this is a cause for slowness, but it makes things simple for now

16:01

< Bluebie> yup ^_^

16:01

< gdp> Linux novideo working, is Linux video coming? what is the difference

16:01

< Bluebie> gdp: the difference is novideo lacks support for videos

16:01

<@_why> on linux, we use a `select` loop, which is a really efficient way of switching between ruby threads and the gui

16:01

< Bluebie> like I use with sockets! ^_^

16:02

< Bluebie> right?

16:02

< richardmonette> if ive got shoes-0.r396-curious-intel how old is that now?

16:02

< Bluebie> richardmonette: very very old

16:02

< richardmonette> haha

16:02

<@_why> on windows, i use the `PostMessage` loop to run ruby calls when the window is bored

16:02

< Bluebie> richardmonette: those are your grandpa's shoes

16:02

< richardmonette> http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/shoes/wiki/DownloadShoes

16:02

<@_why> so, that means that on windows, running ruby is secondary to the painting stuff

16:03

< richardmonette> this is all showing Jan 2008 updates?

16:03

< Bluebie> those are 'releases'

16:03

< eki_> you want recent builds, not download shoes

16:03

<@_why> richardmonette see the post on ihack.us

16:03

< Bluebie> we'll be making one at the end of the month called Raisins :)

16:03

<@_why> DrErnie lists some builds that are just minutes old, for each platform

16:04

< richardmonette> *very embarrased

16:04

< ak_avenger> 'the painting stuff' you mean drawing the window's visual elements?

16:04

<@_why> no no, hardly, you are well-respected richardmonette

16:04

<@_why> threads on osx are triggered through a timer

16:04

< Bluebie> yes richardmonette, we're all honoured by your lovely presence. You've been a real delight! ^_^

16:05

< jonuts> hooray for shoes day!

16:05

< Bluebie> that seems... wasteful

16:05

< Bluebie> Hooray! ^_^

16:05

< richardmonette> is there somewhere i could post my flickr example?

16:05

<@_why> so, threads on osx, in my experience are very flakey and i am investigating using macruby to get things moving much smoother on osx

16:05

< mrtsunami> three cheers for shoes. :P

16:05

< richardmonette> maybe get some feedback on what i tried to create

16:05

< mrtsunami> richardmonette, pastebin?

16:05

< Bluebie> richardmonette: I could set you up with an ftp if you'd like :)

16:06

< richardmonette> pastebin?

16:06

< Bluebie> richardmonette: pastie.org

16:06

< Bluebie> will work great if it's just a single source file and not a bunch of files together needed

16:06

<@_why> or you could put it on the-shoebox.org

16:06

< richardmonette> ill make a shoebox project

16:07

< richardmonette> its just one file

16:07

< eljay> anyone feel like throwing some ideas my way to experiment with? my lack of imagination is astounding

16:07

< eljay> i'm currently just playing with examples

16:08

< Bluebie> eljay: take some photo's of your hand in different poses and angles, and them make a rock paper scissors game using the pictures in 'image' elements

16:09

< ak_avenger> then rig it so that the program predicts your next choice based on previous unconscious patterns in your rock-paper-scissors choices

16:09

< Bluebie> that can be for extra points :P

16:09

< eljay> that went from sounding simple to mind boggling ^^

16:09

< Bluebie> but yeah, you could hook up a tiny neural network or something and make the shoes app actually learn! :O

16:09

<@_why> gdp: what linux distro are you on?

16:09

< Bluebie> eljay: do the simple bit first :)

16:10

< Bluebie> and if you want to do more you can fiddle with neural networks or genetic algorithms or whatever

16:10

< gdp> Ubuntu Linux gdp 2.6.24-19-generic #1 SMP Wed Jun 18 14:43:41 UTC 2008 i686 GNU/Linux

16:10

< elib> sorry, _why, I have to go do the parent-visiting tour now

16:10

< eljay> by first you mean only that bit right? :)

16:10

< Bluebie> I think an evolving dna doodad would be kinda fun to code

16:10

< elib> basically, add MUI_PAGE_DIRECTORY to your pages, and you get the target parent-dir into $INSTDIR

16:10

<@_why> gdp: http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r801.tar.gz

16:10

< Bluebie> eljay: just do the bits you want to do :)

16:10

< eljay> i shall return after a brief luncheon

16:11

< ak_avenger> genetic algorithms!

16:11

<@_why> to get video, follow the instructions at the bottom of the README

16:11

< elib> then, and only then, I suggest you combine it with the ${AppVersion} variable

16:11

< gdp> thanks

16:11

< Bluebie> Hiya ashbb!

16:11

<@_why> it also has a list of libs to install

16:11

< ak_avenger> those kick ass, i made one for evolving equations that add up to a number you ask for

16:12

< ashbb> Hi Bluebie!

16:12

< Bluebie> You aren't late, right on time! ^_^

16:12

< richardmonette> http://www.the-shoebox.org/apps/59

16:12

<@_why> elib, eljay: see you around, very good to have your help

16:12

< richardmonette> flickr thing i am working on

16:12

< elib> hope to work on it later tonight, save room on the shoe-tree

16:12

<@_why> good to see you, ashbb

16:12

< elib> err, "it" is shoes, not the nsis file (it's full of _whystuff, don't wanna break it)

16:13

< Bluebie> _why: not being able to drag url's from safari in to shoes and have it download the url's content and run it as ruby makes the shoe box less fun

16:13

< ak_avenger> I think i have a shoes app on here somewhere that uses a genetic algorithm to find the biggest circle that fits between a bunch of other circles without overlapping

16:13

< ashbb> Genetic Algorithms? Here? : http://www.ai-junkie.com/ga/intro/gat1.html

16:13

< ak_avenger> yeah

16:13

< ak_avenger> at the end of that article

16:14

<@_why> okay, gonna merge your nsis idea now, elib

16:14

< Bluebie> wouldn't neural be better for rock paper scissors? at least for predicting..

16:14

< ak_avenger> there's a list of 'other things to try'

16:14

< ChrisColon> Oh, I just remembered I wanted to ask something. _Why, you had this Ruby code in HacketyHack to download stuff with Ruby whilst updating a progress bar. Would it be okay to use that code in one of my Shoes apps? I improved it a bit, I added error handling, download resuming and stuff

16:14

< ak_avenger> the circles thing is one of them, and someone I know decided to solve that problem, in Shoes

16:14

< Bluebie> I would imagine given the amount of choices in rock paper scissors, the creativity of evolution would be less valuable than the sneaky know it all predictiveness of gooey brain matter

16:15

< ak_avenger> yes, probably

16:15

< ak_avenger> i've never done anything with neural networks

16:15

<@_why> go for it, ChrisColon, please do it already

16:16

< ChrisColon> Thanks a lot :)

16:17

< Bluebie> god we're good at complicating rock paper scissors

16:17

< Bluebie> lets do tic tac toe next!

16:17

< ChrisColon> Ha, Tic Tac Toe was the first thing I ever wrote with Java. It's fun to write :)

16:17

< Bluebie> could we use a bayesian classifier to judge people's IQ number over the course of five games of tic tac toe?

16:18

<@_why> no come on do a semaphore game, i want to be jenna having a one-sided conversation with planes!

16:18

< Bluebie> iunno, with only one mouth, i'd have to hold the other paddle with my tail >_>

16:19

< Bluebie> or make super light styrofoam paddles that attach to ears!

16:19

< richardmonette> how does shoes handle gems that have been installed into the standard ruby libs?

16:19

< Bluebie> None of you steal that idea. That's totally the brilliant idea I need to become a miiiiiilionair!

16:19

< richardmonette> right now ive been doing stuff like $:.push("/Users/richardmonette/Documents/ruby projects/rflickr/lib/")

16:19

< Bluebie> semaphore paddles for horses!

16:20

< richardmonette> there must be a better way!?

16:20

< ak_avenger> to_learn << [neural_nets, bayesian_analysis, semaphores]

16:20

< Bluebie> richardmonette: it doesn't, it uses it's own gems thingo

16:20

< ashbb> I wrote two tiny Shoes apps with GA. I'm going to post it on ShoesBox tomorrow.

16:20

< eki_> is there anyway to change the fill or stroke of a shape?

16:20

< richardmonette> so i have to install all my gems twice?

16:20

< eki_> oh, clear, probably?

16:20

< Bluebie> richardmonette: before your 'requires' add Shoes.setup do; gem 'whatever gem'; end

16:21

< Bluebie> add more gem statments for others, and the gems will download and install in to shoes as needed when the user uses your app!

16:22

< richardmonette> ah cool

16:22

< eki_> nope, no clear for Shape...

16:22

< richardmonette> is it possible to remove a version from the shoebox?

16:23

< Bluebie> eki_: but you could clear the thing the shape is inside of and redraw them

16:23

< Bluebie> or replace the shape element with a new element

16:23

< [1]phon> shoes syntax bother me, why not make it as SVG or povray compatible?

16:23

< ropiku> sinatra

16:24

< Bluebie> [1]phon: I will only answer that with this judgemental japanese emoticon

16:24

< Bluebie> Are you ready for it?

16:24

< Bluebie> here it is.

16:24

< Bluebie> o..o

16:24

< richardmonette> @why is it possible to remove versions from the shoebox?

16:24

< Bluebie> the dots are nostrils

16:24

< richardmonette> does everyone here have twitter?

16:25

< Bluebie> meanwhile... _why: it'd be cool if someday shoes's image element could load an svg file

16:25

< Bluebie> I do!

16:25

< [1]phon> ddragon me on twitter

16:25

< kuremmu> i wondered about an inconsistency in Shoes error handling (windows r751). sometimes you get a console, sometimes you get a blank app and have to pull up the console.

16:25

< [1]phon> shoes can be adobe air if we work on it

16:26

< ak_avenger> oh no! you can't type more text in a textbox than what fits in its width! this is unacceptable, how will people type ' OR 1=1; DROP TABLE users;-- into my tiny username field?

16:26

< Bluebie> [1]phon: Just use adobe air.

16:26

< [1]phon> I am but I also like shoes

16:26

< Bluebie> We aren't trying to make Adobe AIR... we're making shoes!

16:26

< eki_> okay, slightly inconvienent not being able to manipulate shapes... I suppose I can replace them with image blocks and then redraw the images...

16:26

<@_why> richardmonette: i'm not sure how versions work on the shoebox

16:26

< [1]phon> or XUL, JAVAFX,Silverlight, prism lol

16:27

< Bluebie> ak_avenger: on which platform?

16:27

< richardmonette> _why: who is responsible for the shoe box?

16:27

< Bluebie> Shoes is being invented specifically so _why doesn't have to use XUL

16:27

<@_why> bluebie: i was going to do it but the svg deps were a bit big, would be a great extension to shoes

16:27

< Bluebie> yeah, totally

16:27

< [1]phon> we can learn alot from the big gun

16:27

<@_why> richardmonette: jeremy ashkenas is his name

16:27

< Bluebie> does an imageblock get some kind of array of pixels or something so we can shove pixels out and do junk like that, processing style?

16:28

< [1]phon> svg is comming hooray!!!

16:28

< richardmonette> does he have an email address at which to send him scintillating conversation?

16:28

< ak_avenger> i'm using windows

16:28

< Bluebie> [1]phon: nobody said that o_o

16:28

< [1]phon> _why did i was going to do it but the svg deps were a bit big, would be a great extension to shoes

16:28

< Bluebie> _why: or better yet, do widgets have some way to get at a raw pixel array and shove stuff in it?

16:29

< richardmonette> _why: does he have an email address at which to send him scintillating conversation?

16:29

< [1]phon> can the main windows make trasparent?

16:29

< Bluebie> activesupport is a great extension to camping 2.0, but it's not a part of camping 2.0, it is an extension

16:29

<@_why> richardmonette his email is jashkenas at gmail

16:29

< Bluebie> [1]phon: Nope, seriously though, try AIR

16:30

< [1]phon> I did and love it but the sandbox give me headache while shoes not

16:30

< Bluebie> Adobe Air already is an Adobe Air, with support for fun stuff like vector graphics, freeform windows... and... um...... surely other stuff too!

16:31

< kuremmu> any thoughts about forking christian neukirchen's bacon to make it shoes-aware? or is bdd unshoelike?

16:31

<@_why> kuremmu there's a guy named phlip on the shoes list who's been working on some kind of shoes testing lib

16:31

< Bluebie> kuremmu: maybe that could be your project!

16:32

< Bluebie> BDD isn't my cup of tea.. but surely some people somewhere think it's pretty nifty!

16:32

< Bluebie> testing frameworks are like code versioning servers and linux sound servers, we seemingly can never have enough of them

16:32

< ChrisColon> I tried to understand BDD by looking at other people's specs, but then I saw that they don't understand it either :)

16:33

<@_why> oh hey on the topic of threads, i wanted to get some ideas from those of you who have been using them in shoes

16:33

<@_why> one of the main reason people have been using threads is for downloading things

16:34

<@_why> i'm think of adding some tight platform code for downloading things that'll keep you away from threads

16:34

< Bluebie> a member of my fanclub is seemingly mascerading on an irc server using my old nickname and acting like old me as a way of being old me back to life after new me said I wasn't especially interested o_o

16:34

<@_why> i have to do it anyway for images

16:34

< ChrisColon> That would be great

16:34

<@_why> i'm wondering if you're using threads for anything else

16:34

< richardmonette> downloading stuff is probably the biggest reason i need threads

16:35

< ChrisColon> I just used it for updating the progressbar while downloading YouTube videos and Podcasts and for a game I wrote that displays a bunch of Flickr pics and you have to guess which search term was used

16:35

< Bluebie> how about download(url), returns an object which responds to methods like progress #=> 0.0 .. 1.0, .size, .path, and a 'finished' event?

16:35

< ChrisColon> so, 100% downloading

16:35

< Bluebie> or finish..?

16:36

< kuremmu> big job involved with a testing tool would be bunging in some webrat or selenium like stuff to test the ui. does Shoes have some DOM analog that can be queried?

16:36

< Bluebie> kuremmu: elements have 'contents' properties which is like 'children' in the dom

16:36

< Bluebie> and I believe they also have a parent

16:36

< Bluebie> they have a style method which returns a hash of the elements styles

16:37

<@_why> okay, this is good to hear

16:37

< ChrisColon> It would be great if you could implement multi threaded downloading then though. That's really great when downloading thumbnails because they are so small that they don't download at a high speed

16:37

<@_why> yeah bluebie's nailed what i was thinking

16:37

< jonuts> does shoes.git not build on osx?

16:37

<@_why> see, i want images to act more like they do in a browser

16:37

<@_why> when you place an image: like `image "static/shoes-logo.png"`

16:38

<@_why> it'll place an empty image there at first

16:38

< Bluebie> you could do some trickery to delay downloads such that only 3 or so run at a time and the rest wait in a queue to start, like a web browser, for the sake of the network

16:38

<@_why> then it'll resize it once it gets the header

16:38

<@_why> and then it'll work on displaying it

16:38

<@_why> all from a thread, so the gui can move on

16:38

<@_why> and you'll have a load event

16:39

< richardmonette> you should be able to set the size too, and maybe a scale mode for such images

16:39

<@_why> right, it'll have to be a queue with the threads idling

16:39

< richardmonette> so it doesnt get the size and then mess up the layout

16:39

<@_why> absolutely, it'll use the same :width and :height styles you can use to resize today

16:39

< Bluebie> oh righty, you could start the threads with 'sleep', and then wake them up as wanted, correct?

16:40

< richardmonette> cool

16:40

< Bluebie> _why: did the aspect ratio image sizing thingo get implemented yet when only one of width or height is specified like html?

16:40

<@_why> it should be very easy to do since the image cache is isolated in memory from the rest of shoes

16:41

<@_why> well, okay, let's plan on testing that next shoes day

16:41

<@_why> and we'll see if we can get it pretty stable on the list between now and then

16:42

< Bluebie> be nifty if images had a 'path' method which returned the local filesystem path of the cache image (if they are indeed in the file system at all..) so people can mess around with all those image tag reading libraries and stuff against the downloaded images in the load event

16:42

< ashbb> I like image block feature. Cool!

16:42

< Bluebie> image blocks need docs

16:43

< ak_avenger> is it normal that my edit_line won't accept more text than what fits in its length?

16:43

<@_why> bluebie, no, i'll add that to the ditz entry that will encompass the entire umbrella of matters related to this feature

16:43

< Bluebie> I have no idea what I can do with them, like blur and glow, how do they work? needs to be in docs

16:43

<@_why> true, effects need to be in the docs

16:44

< ashbb> need docs? What do you mean?

16:44

< Bluebie> ak_avenger: ones on mac os accept more, but when you select all via right click menu, it only selects the visible part... arrow key manipulation moves back and forth through it as if the edit_line is actually wrapping around on to multiple lines

16:44

< kuremmu> the checked method for clicking checkboxes and radio buttons programmatically comes up missing (on windowsr751). is it on the todo? or does it exist under another name?

16:44

< Bluebie> _why: One thing I'd really like to see is the ability to specify the amount of blur on a glow

16:44

< Bluebie> so you can use a glow to add a solid funky outline to something

16:44

<@_why> kuremmu: do you have a quiz mark at the end: `checked?`

16:44

< Bluebie> or have a blurry fuzzy glow, or whatever

16:45

<@_why> inner and outer glows

16:45

< kuremmu> also, how about programmatically clicking buttons, etc.? or graying out options?

16:45

< Bluebie> when I looked at the shoes source a bit ago, it looked like all glow took was one float, a radius type thing

16:45

<@_why> glow(2) gives a 2 pixel radius outer glow

16:45

<@_why> glow(2, :inner => true) gives a 2px inner glow

16:46

< Bluebie> sure, but what if you want a glow 2 pixels in radius, that's solid, not blurry?

16:46

< Bluebie> so it's like a solid inked outline?

16:46

< kuremmu> checked? tells me the state of a button, but i want to set the state from the program.

16:46

<@_why> kuremmu: `checked=`

16:46

<@_why> type `shoes -m` to bring up the manual, kuremmu

16:46

< eki_> okay, my latest problem: I've draw a rect on to an image, I then call the image's clear method to draw over the rect... calling clear (even with an empty block) segfaults...

16:46

< Bluebie> maybe an outline effect is more suitable.. that is just how I hacked together outlines out of glows in image editors like fireworks..

16:47

< kuremmu> checked= doesn't work for me. Shoes claims no such method.

16:47

<@_why> ak_avenger: what platform?

16:48

< eki_> my segfault is on linux...

16:49

< Bluebie> darn, I'm getting that same weird crash again on this new build as before

16:50

< ak_avenger> i,m on windows

16:50

< ak_avenger> vista, if it matters

16:54

< Bluebie> Hiya nertzy ^_^

16:54

< nertzy> hello

16:55

< Bluebie> Gosh, it's so busy here you can barely notice the corpses!

16:55

< ak_avenger> i hadn't seen them!

16:55

< nertzy> Ssh just drape this canvas over them...

16:55

 * Bluebie nods and drapes

16:55

< nertzy> My what a fine and burlappy carpet we have!

16:56

< Bluebie> indeed ^_^

16:56

< eki_> does clear work from within an event handler (like motion)?

16:56

< nertzy> It may be a bit bumpy and squishy here and there, but it sure is splendid

16:56

< Bluebie> eki_: it sure should!

16:56

< Bluebie> just be careful you aren't clearing the whole app including the motion event handler! (unless you want it to cease to exist after it first runs)

16:57

< Bluebie> so, some_thing.clear { sure! }, while clear { not so much! }

16:57

< eki_> I crash outside of my motion handler as well...

16:57

< eki_> does clear work from within a widget?

16:57

< Bluebie> is it clearing something inside the widget itself?

16:58

<@_why> okay, sorry

16:58

< eki_> the widget contains a single stack that contains an image ...

16:58

<@_why> a friend came over to borrow a book

16:58

< eki_> it's a memory image with a single rect drawn on it... I'm just trying to clear the image and redraw a rect of a different color...

17:01

<@_why> okay, yes, same on xp, ak_avenger

17:01

< ChrisColon> someSlot.clear is what I have trouble with when using Threads. I download pictures in a thread and display them. Then I clear the slot where the pictures are in, replacing them with new pictures and Shoes crashes. At least that's what I think it is that makes it crash. I'm pretty sure. Like.. More than 54% sure.

17:02

< ak_avenger> so fo now, I guess i'll just make it big enough so users can enter malformed SQL of a reasonable length

17:04

< ashbb> @_why: I have a same trable of this thread. http://www.mail-archive.com/shoes@code.whytheluckystiff.net/msg01162.html

17:04

< ashbb> fixed?

17:04

< ashbb> *trouble*

17:04

< Bluebie> hey you guys, if you'd like to see a shoes app with a simple sprite class and a pony sprite that totally walks, prepare for your dreams to come true! http://bluebie.no-ip.biz/~jenna/Archive.zip

17:05

< Bluebie> I would have made a game, but when it came to designing the level graphics, I realised that in fact, I also need gameplay, and not just a cunning plan to make pretty pictures

17:05

< Bluebie> I searched and searched, but there was no gameplay to be had

17:05

< eljay> i have returned from that interesting concept called life, back to experimenting

17:06

< ashbb> @Bluebie thanks. now downloading.

17:07

< paulv> heh, # fire lasers?

17:08

< Bluebie> Epona is god of horses, donkeys, and mules

17:08

< Bluebie> she must protect them

17:08

< Bluebie> lasers are easy to animate

17:08

< Bluebie> eye lasers

17:08

< Bluebie> of destruction

17:08

< Bluebie> we're talking megawatt lasers here, folks

17:09

< Bluebie> everybody feel free to make an actual game of it, but the graphics for standing still and flying are unfinished

17:11

< ejmiller> @Bluebie nice app. Works just fine on ubuntu

17:11

< kuremmu> horse eye lasers are fine. just avoid laser bears and mutant fire clams. hardcore rpg people will recognize the reference.

17:11

< ashbb> Just downloaded. then unzip.

17:11

<@_why> ashbb: you're on windows as well, right?

17:11

< Bluebie> nowonder I don't recognise it ^_^

17:12

< Bluebie> I mean, even _why's music involves lasers

17:12

< Bluebie> everything good has lasers

17:12

< ashbb> yes WindwosXP.

17:12

< ejmiller> how about adding some old time cowboy background music

17:12

< gdp> Linux:shoes samples/simple-video.rb gives errors : no memcpy module matched "any" etc

17:13

< ashbb> Wow! a real horse. walking! Great!

17:13

< Bluebie> sure, the video element can play mp3's and stuff too :)

17:13

< ak_avenger> it works!

17:13

< [1]phon> donkey walking cool

17:13

< Bluebie> that's the magic of shoes, folks. It even gives you the pony your parents wouldn't

17:13

< ak_avenger> the horse is walking across my monitor on vista

17:13

< Bluebie> it's not a donkey dangit

17:13

< Bluebie> her name is Shorty

17:13

<@_why> okay, ak_avenger, that's fixed

17:14

< Bluebie> in real life

17:14

< [1]phon> 3d next??

17:14

< ak_avenger> thanks, _why

17:14

< Bluebie> shivver me timbers! 3d is unshoesian!

17:14

< kuremmu> very nice horse, Bluebie

17:15

< Bluebie> unless someone comes up with a brilliantly simple way to make 3d...

17:15

< ak_avenger> i think it's possible

17:15

< Bluebie> like... horse (x, y, z, :walking)

17:15

< Bluebie> just magically make models

17:15

<@_why> http://github.com/why/shoes/commit/5124335

17:15

<@_why> new builds will be out again in about three hours

17:15

< [1]phon> as long as you import collada or obj format

17:16

< Bluebie> _why: could you make the edit line on mac os x work like an edit line?

17:16

< ak_avenger> math class has taught me that extra dimensions aren't really that intimidating, just more work to calculate

17:16

< Bluebie> instead of like a text area that just happens to be one line hight?

17:16

< ak_avenger> whoa, Bluebie, your program crashed when i closed it

17:17

< [1]phon> it crash on me too

17:17

< ak_avenger> Assertion failed!

17:17

< Bluebie> :(

17:17

< Bluebie> it doesn't crash mac os..

17:17

< paulv> hmm, worked for me

17:17

< [1]phon> how do I get files from github?

17:17

< Bluebie> but there is bad code on 41

17:17

< ak_avenger> cairo_surface.c, line 405

17:17

<@_why> ashbb: so does the blue rectangle fill the whole window?

17:17

< [1]phon> same

17:18

< paulv> git clone git://github.com/why/shoes.git

17:18

< [1]phon> and download the the zip file??

17:18

< Bluebie> _why: I don't like how when you do a rect with no stroke but a fill, and you give it integers for it's coords, the edges are fuzzy, like they're 0.5px too close to the center of the rect

17:19

< kuremmu> did some more experimenting with checked=. outside the check block, checked= apparently has no effect.

17:19

< Bluebie> a rect aught to be sharp unless rotated

17:19

< ejmiller> same here on ubuntu - shoes-bin: /build/buildd/cairo-1.6.0/src/cairo-surface.c:405: cairo_surface_destroy: Assertion `((*&(&surface->ref_count)->ref_count) > 0)' failed.

17:20

<@_why> yeah maybe i should turn off antialiasing if lines are mathematically straight

17:20

< kuremmu> inside the block, it does nothing until you click the checkbox. then it locks the checkbox to the value given to checked= and seemingly ignores further clicks.

17:21

< gdp> I am on linux , anybody else?

17:21

<@_why> i've only recently been giving attention to making checkboxes and radios work, so i'm sure there are bugs, what platform was it again you're on?

17:21

< kuremmu> windows r751

17:21

< ejmiller> I'm using linux (Ubuntu Hardy)

17:22

< gdp> ejmiller: shoes video is working for you

17:22

< ejmiller> gdp: let me check

17:22

< paulv> I'm on gutsy

17:22

< paulv> and video works

17:22

< paulv> except for the bug I'm about to send to the list

17:23

< ashbb> _why: so does the blue rectangle fill the whole window? YES. and crash. WindowsXP Shoes 0.r751

17:23

< ejmiller> gdp - the simple video sample works

17:23

<@_why> ashbb, kuremmu: http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r799.exe

17:23

< kuremmu> i'm thinking about this checkbox issue right now because a possible bacon fork (chunky?) would have to be able to send clicks etc. to the app to test it

17:23

< gdp> paulv I am on hardy. I get erros starting with " no memcpy module matched "any""

17:23

< Bluebie> I don't get how come my game.rb crashes on some mysertious other OS people use and makes weird errors about trying to (:walk).call, while :walk is used in my code, .call isn't..

17:24

< Bluebie> shoes doing something weird with my Symbols?

17:24

< ejmiller> gdp: I'm using shoes raisins (0.r724)

17:24

< paulv> gdp: I dont get that error. are you bulding from git?

17:24

< jballanc> Good morning.localtime all! Happy Shoes Day!

17:24

< Bluebie> _why: I'm afraid you will have to experience the walking horse also

17:25

< Bluebie> she's like a budgee in a mine, if she stops working, we know there are bugs about

17:25

< Bluebie> walking..

17:25

< Bluebie> darn it

17:25

< Bluebie> it's 1:25am

17:25

< ak_avenger> i am sorry and will use linux like normal people in the future, Bluebie :(

17:25

< Bluebie> I best be going to sleep guys

17:25

< mrtsunami> 'night Bluebie, sleep well

17:25

< Bluebie> ak_avenger: no need to be sorry! I'm using a mac!

17:25

< jballanc> See ya Bluebie

17:25

< ChrisColon> Good night bluebie

17:25

< gdp> paulv I compiled from shoes-0.r801.tar.gz , link give earlier by _why

17:25

< Bluebie> wondows users are people also!

17:26

< ak_avenger> heh

17:26

< mrtsunami> Actually, I'm definitely a robot

17:26

< ejmiller> good nite Bluebie

17:26

< [1]phon> _why, is it possible to include chipmunk in the future version??

17:26

< paulv> gdp: you're running samples/simple-video.rb or something else?

17:26

<@_why> see bluey

17:27

< jballanc> So, I still have to shower, eat, drive to work, etc...but I wanted to jump in with an idea to share

17:27

< ashbb> Good night, Bluebie. See you :)

17:27

<@_why> okay recent builds page is anew

17:27

< jballanc> How does everyone feel about a Shoes IRC client?

17:27

< jballanc> I found this: http://rubyforge.org/projects/ruby-irc/

17:27

< Bluebie> I promise you guys I'll learn what the heck a mutex is and make legs not so liable to eat it's own butt soon

17:27

< jballanc> ...but I have no idea how good it is

17:27

< [1]phon> mutex is a semaphore

17:28

< gdp> paulv yes , i ran samples/simple-video.rb and tried an mp4 on my system

17:28

< Bluebie> jballanc: I personally feel that IRC protocol is rubbish and that it's incredibly difficult to build any decent GUI clients in it

17:28

< Bluebie> though it's a great protocol for terminal chat clients

17:29

< Bluebie> _why, please download that archive.zip off me before I go if you haven't already, as when I go to sleep, so does that server

17:29

< eki_> I reduced my code to just the bare minimum to crash shoes: http://pastie.org/232039

17:30

< eki_> any thoughts?

17:30

< kuremmu> Bluebie, on windows r751 when you end game.rb cairo throw an assertion failed from cairo-surface.c CAIRO_REFERENCE_COUNT_HAS_REFERENCE(&surface->ref_count)

17:30

<@_why> okay got it, bloob

17:31

< Bluebie> cya guys! ^_^

17:31

< Bluebie> kuremmu: tell _why all about it ^_^

17:32

< ak_avenger> so _why, i just installed r799 and i still can't type more text than what fits in an edit_line... is that fix supposed to be in r799?

17:33

<@_why> no, that'll be the next set of builds

17:33

< ak_avenger> oh ok

17:33

<@_why> r799 is from a few hours ago

17:33

<@_why> you guys want to try game.rb with r799?

17:33

< ashbb> _why: with 0.r799, blue rectangle fill just size. Good! but then mouse leave, nothing happen. not change to red again???

17:33

< paulv> gdp: weird, simple-video.rb works for me with 0.r801

17:35

<@_why> gdp: so you click the 'play' link and nothing happens?

17:37

< gdp> _why I get some more error lines, one is "no suitable access module for `http://whytheluckystiff.net/o..e/adventure_time.flv'"

17:38

<@_why> are these in the shoes console or in your term window?

17:38

< gdp> _why in the term window

17:40

<@_why> sounds like some vlc plugins are missing

17:40

< eki_> this time without the widget: http://pastie.org/232050

17:41

<@_why> you're on the latest gutsy, is it?

17:42

< eki_> I built shoes from git for linux

17:42

< eki_> just updated when you announced the latest build

17:42

< gdp> _why I am on Hardy Heron

17:42

< richardmonette> does shoes support IO.popen?

17:42

< richardmonette> system() works

17:42

< richardmonette> but IO.popen doesnt seem to

17:43

<@_why> eki_: crashes here, too, looks like imageblock.clear needs a fix

17:43

< kuremmu> -why,I just tried Bluebie's horse thiing on windows r700 and the cairo assertion fail is gone. it terminates error free

17:43

< kuremmu> um r799

17:43

<@_why> you guys are doing great, this is so totally helpful

17:44

< eki_> thanks for looking at it _why

17:44

<@_why> oh good to hear, kuremmu

17:44

<@_why> gdp, i'm on hardy, too, it's what i do most shoes dev on

17:45

<@_why> lemme see what vlc packages i've got installed

17:45

<@_why> libvlc0 libvlc0.dev vlc vlc-nox vlc-plugin-pulse

17:46

<@_why> i wonder if i've got the plugin path wrong for you

17:46

<@_why> do you have stuff in /usr/lib/vlc?

17:46

<@_why> oh that's libvlc0-dev actually

17:46

< gdp> _why I will check my vlc plugins and install yours

17:47

< eki_> btw, is there a way to change the mouse cursor (like it changes when over a link?)

17:48

<@_why> yeah you can use `cursor=`

17:48

<@_why> right now it only takes :hand or :arrow

17:49

<@_why> so, if you're in an event, you can do `self.cursor = :hand`

17:49

< eki_> great, thanks : ))

17:52

< ChrisColon> doing self.cursor = :hand crashes Shoes for me. I put it in a hover {} block of a stack and when I hover over the stack, Shoes crashes.

17:53

< kuremmu> i spotted a little doc glitch. n the manual keypress doc, the list of special keys runs off the edge unless you fullscreen the manual.

17:54

< kuremmu> you see the first few then, on the next line, and f12. easy not to realize there are more there.

17:54

<@_why> okay, thanks, ChrisColon. in addition, it's not working for me on linux.

17:54

< eki_> the self you refer to is Shoes::App ? not, say, a Stack?

17:55

< ifthendo> is anyone able to use IO.popen from within a shoes app?

17:55

< ifthendo> system() works for me but not IO.popen

17:55

< [1]phon> _why I think u should read this http://www.infoq.com/news/2008/07/stream-oriented-ui

17:56

< MadX`> hi again

17:56

< [1]phon> so shoes is multithread?

17:57

< [1]phon> and this http://www.infoq.com/news/2008/07/metaprogramming-roundup

17:58

< rick_2047> sup people

17:58

 * mrtsunami sups

17:59

<@_why> eki_: yeah, when you're build a shoes page, `self` is Shoes::App the whole time

18:00

<@_why> but if you're nested inside a stack and you call like `clear` or `para` or something, it'll send it to the nesting you're at

18:00

< MadX`> _why, have you got more feedback about no video from linux git-based builds ?

18:00

<@_why> are you using rake VIDEO=1 to build?

18:00

< MadX`> yep

18:00

<@_why> it builds okay?

18:00

< MadX`> ah

18:00

< eki_> ah, slightly inconvienent for a Widget... .... okay, so it'll get sent down to the Widget as self?

18:00

< MadX`> yeha, but it seems that it nows links with libvlc

18:01

< MadX`> let me try the sample-video

18:02

< MadX`> seems to work but I got no video, propably due to my low bandwith

18:02

< MadX`> I'll try a local file and tell you

18:03

< gdp> _why Installing vlc vlc-nox vlc-plugin-pulse solved my problem . now video works , thank you.

18:03

< ak_avenger> http://pastie.org/232071 i just made a login window that gives an invalid username or password error if you give it anything but a specific string of malformed SQL

18:04

< ejmiller> I'm new to IRC and have an etiquette question - is it okay to stay connected while I'm away at a meeting so I can continue to log or should I disconnect?

18:04

< MadX`> ok so sound is okay but I got no video

18:04

< paulv> ejmiller: it's okay to stay connected.

18:04

< ejmiller> thanks paulv

18:04

< ak_avenger> next i'm going to make it work with different strings of malformed SQL

18:04

< rick_2047> ashbb, hey

18:05

< ak_avenger> and i'm going to have a "current user count" or something at the bottom of the window

18:05

< ak_avenger> and it's going to drop to 0 if you drop the users table

18:05

<@_why> oh good, gdp

18:06

< MadX`> Ok, _why , forget about the no video issue, I think it's due to my totally broken X server :D

18:07

< hiffy> do y'all think writing a music collection manager/player in shoes would be a fool's game?

18:07

< MadX`> It'd be totally easy :D

18:08

< hiffy> i've been itching to do something along those lines for years now, as a burgeniong collecting habit makes it harder to keep track of

18:08

< ak_avenger> reading id3 tags in ruby is crazy easy

18:09

< ak_avenger> if you use the right libraries

18:09

< livinded> reading id3 tags in general is crazy easy

18:09

< hiffy> more the tracking of 10k+ items and renaming things

18:09

< hiffy> of course now i have to go afk

18:09

< ak_avenger> i dunno i saw some people doing byte-level reading of id3 tags and it looked much more complicated than it needed to be

18:10

< rick_2047> is there something i can use to debug my shoes code

18:10

< livinded> I've done byte level reading, it's not that bad

18:10

< eljay> id3 tags are simple, i've done a php reader for them before

18:10

< livinded> all the work I've done with id3 has been in C though

18:10

< livinded> the structure of the headers is well documented and you just allocate space for the struct and read it in the from the file

18:11

< tstrokes> rick_2047: depends on what your debugging ...but normally info, warn, error, and debug messages do the trick

18:11

< rick_2047> how do i get those messages

18:12

< livinded> hopefully I'll be able to join into the hacking soon

18:12

< livinded> should be off work in a few hours

18:12

< MadX`> rick_2047, you have to bring the console

18:12

< rick_2047> o

18:12

< MadX`> alt+/ or command+/ (on osx)

18:12

< rick_2047> k

18:13

< MrSkittle> Is it shoes day?

18:13

<@_why> okay, got some cursor fixes checked in, a few gtk crashes

18:13

< tstrokes> MrSkittle: yep

18:13

< eki_> _why: if it helps, I get lots of "undefined method 'cursor=' for (Shoes::App "Shoes")" errors in the Shoes console when I try to change the cursor... then after moving the mouse a while Shoes crashes...

18:13

< livinded> I hate how you can't use a keyboard hotkey to move the window in focus to another space like you can with virtual desktops in KDE

18:13

<@_why> let's see, still got ashbb's `leave` issue and eki_'s `imageblock.clear`

18:13

< rick_2047> MrSkittle, the whole world knows it

18:13

< eki_> ah, I see you may have fixed it while I was typing : ))

18:14

< MrSkittle> oic

18:15

< MadX`> :)

18:16

<@_why> ahh this red pen smells like shoeshines

18:17

< MrSkittle> lovely!

18:17

<@_why> unfortunately the legal pad i'm writing these bugs down on is also kind of red

18:17

< MrSkittle> oh noes!

18:17

<@_why> this is a bad idea

18:17

<@_why> i can'

18:17

<@_why> can't seem to find anything else

18:17

< ChrisColon> You could maybe.. You know. Use a texteditor?

18:18

< ChrisColon> I haven't written on paper since school. And nobody could make me do it ever again.

18:18

< MrSkittle> You could write it on your hand!

18:18

< rick_2047> ChrisColon, way to go save the environment

18:19

< ChrisColon> rick_2047: More like, way to go save my hand from cramps

18:19

<@_why> my whole hand is going to smell like shoeshines

18:19

< rick_2047> lol

18:20

<@_why> people on the street will go "look at that guy's hand" and everyone will be like "must be a rubyist"

18:20

< MrSkittle> You don't want that sort of reputation? :D

18:20

<@_why> oh i'm thrilled about this, mister skittle

18:20

< ChrisColon> It would even remind people of redhanded

18:21

< MrSkittle> red has a lot of associations...

18:21

< MrSkittle> Republican, communist...

18:21

< MrSkittle> chinese...

18:21

< MadX`> blood

18:22

< MrSkittle> Sometimes goth chicks wear red when they run out of black things to wear

18:22

< rick_2047> MadX`, state the obvious

18:22

< MadX`> with red on your hands people weel be more likely to tell "hey this guy is a murderer"

18:22

< MrSkittle> or a goth chick

18:22

<@_why> i tell ya, i love blood

18:22

< MadX`> and you'll have to answer them "no, it hasn't been released yet"

18:22

< dowaito> Blood: I can't live without it.

18:23

 * MrSkittle knee-slap

18:23

< tamalw> Sorry for the late arrival… two quick questions/confirmations: Shoes.app :resizable => false isn't working for me and neither is close() or exit(). On OS X, Shoes r751. Is there a newer build I should be using? Last time I tried I couldn't build from source.

18:23

<@_why> haha, good one MadX`

18:23

< MadX`> :)

18:24

<@_why> tamalw: try http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r799-intel.dmg

18:24

<@_why> i'm not sure about `close` and `exit` but there were definitely fixes to resizable

18:24

< tamalw> merci!

18:25

< MadX`> de rien ?

18:25

< MrSkittle> gesundheit.

18:25

< MrSkittle> :D

18:26

< MrSkittle> Hmm... I should get a Mac to look more rubyist-like...

18:26

< rick_2047> which lib do i need to install the video support??

18:26

< rick_2047> on linux

18:26

< MrSkittle> ya have VLC?

18:26

< rick_2047> MrSkittle, no

18:26

< MadX`> vlc-devsomething

18:26

< MrSkittle> get that, also the dev files

18:27

< rick_2047> k

18:27

< MrSkittle> just open your favorite GUI to your favorite package manager and search for VLC

18:27

< eki_> _why, is cursor= supposed to work after your last commit? I'm happy to report it doesn't crash for me, and the value of self.cursor is changing as I want it to, but the actual cursor remains the same...

18:27

< rick_2047> MrSkittle, i dont have a gui package management

18:28

< MadX`> apt-get will do ;)

18:28

< rick_2047> MadX`, i am not on debian

18:28

< rick_2047> i am on arch

18:28

< MadX`> yaourt then ?

18:28

< ChrisColon> then yaourt will do it

18:28

< rick_2047> arch has its pacman

18:28

<@_why> yeah eki_ it's true, seeing that too

18:28

< MadX`> oh yes, right

18:28

< MrSkittle> arch also has an online thingy to search packages

18:28

< MadX`> so pacman will do it :P