14:11 >> _why changed the topic of #shoes to: as it happens, today is shoes day // http://ihack.us/2008/07/10/shoesfest-2008 // and this one: http://is.gd/Quz
14:12 <@_why> mic check mic check
14:12 <@_why> testing 1 2
14:12 <@_why> triangle rectangle hex-a-gooone
14:12 < elib> loud and clear
14:12 <@_why> very good
14:13 <@_why> hey elib, welcome to shoes day
14:13 <@_why> and hey everyone, welcome to shoes day
14:13 < eki_> happy shoes day : ))
14:13 < elib> part I
14:13 < eljay> *pops his head up*
14:15 < elib> _why, are there known problems with compiling latest git-Shoes on VS2005?
14:15 <@_why> okay, the first order of the day is to get you all a brand new build
14:15 < elib> aha
14:15 < MadX`> I'll be there in a minute, just have to finish my Card Fighters Clash game :D
14:16 <@_why> elib: probably, i imagine so
14:16 < Bluebie> Oh hiya _why
14:16 < Bluebie> hows the loud lady with the radio situation?
14:17 < MadX`> hey _why, welcome to shoes day
14:17 < elib> _why: ok, maybe we'll iron them out
14:17 <@_why> but before the build, is there any one who's on the powerpc platform?
14:18 < MadX`> latest shoes built.
14:19 <@_why> anyone who's no on windows xp/vista, osx 10.4/10.5 intel or linux i686?
14:20 < gdp> here I am on Linux Ubuntu i686
14:20 <@_why> that's great, any flavor of linux on i686 will do
14:20 < MadX`> hey, have we got some backup bot ?
14:21 <@_why> good idea, anyone keeping a log?
14:21 < MadX`> me :)
14:21 < eki_> I'm on linux (but, I just built from git, so don't worry about me)
14:21 < MadX`> I'm already logging everything
14:22 < eki_> I might test on osx, powerpc later today... depending on how the coding goes
14:23 <@_why> that would be totally sensational, shoes is lagging behind on powerpc and i could use some help with it
14:25 < MadX`> so, why is there so many untalking people ?
14:25 < eki_> no problem : ))
14:26 <@_why> yeah, would it be okay if everyone said what platform they're testing today?
14:26 < ChrisColon> (because they are in shock and awe) I have an old PPC iBook which I could power up, I am currently on my Intel Mac
14:26  * mrtsunami talks.
14:26  * eljay is on vista
14:26  * mrtsunami is on Windows XP Media Center Edition
14:26 <@_why> i think if i have a list of what you're on at the start, it'll save me asking ad nauseam
14:27  * elib trudges along with XP Pro SP2
14:28 < ChrisColon> Currently: Mac OS X Leopard, Intel; can switch to Windows XP SP2, Ubuntu Hardy Heron and Mac OS X Leopard on PPC to test
14:29 < Bluebie> I can test ppc 10.4 if you'd like, there's an old iMac g4 sitting right behind me :)
14:29 <@_why> certainly whatever is convenient for you
14:30 < Bluebie> somewhat distracted by personal life stuff for now though
14:31 < MadX`> _why, I'm on Debian Testing
14:31 < elib> I really wanted to make something Shoesy with the CamSpace API, but SWIG and I are not on the best of terms
14:31 < Bluebie> is there a new build out now or is that coming?
14:33 <@_why> a fresh build is in the oven and i am just testing it with a toothpick
14:33 < Bluebie> neato ^_^
14:33  * Bluebie noms on her curry
14:34 < mrtsunami> _why, are you snacking?
14:35 < MadX`> so, what are the plans for today ? Massive bug squashing ?
14:36 < MadX`> squishing*
14:36 <@_why> no, but i am closing a heating vent with my foot
14:37 <@_why> the plan is to put out three sets of builds through out the day
14:37 <@_why> every six hours or so, i imagine
14:37 < MadX`> ok
14:37 <@_why> so, when the builds come out, poke at them like crazy
14:37 < elib> quite an imagination
14:37 <@_why> and between that, do whatever you like
14:38 <@_why> or, alternatively, just do whatever you like the whole time
14:39 <@_why> this is day is mostly for you guys, so you can ask questions, talk about shoes issues that are bothering you
14:40 < MadX`> I'm quickly running through the samples to see if there are bugs in them
14:40 < mrtsunami> _why, even if you're a complete noob?
14:40 < mrtsunami> (as I am)
14:41 < elib> +1 for noob population
14:41 < MadX`> yeah I think that's also a goal of this day :D
14:41 <@_why> oh especially if you are a complete newb
14:41 < eljay> +0.5 for noob population
14:42 <@_why> this goes out to all the newbs in their motorcycle sidecars
14:43 < elib> let's form a line according to height and favorite music genre
14:44 <@_why> okay osx builds:
14:44 <@_why> (video) http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r799-intel.dmg
14:44 <@_why> (novideo) http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r799-intel-novideo.dmg
14:44 <@_why> those are intel-only
14:45 < Bluebie> neato ^_^
14:45 < MadX`> who, I've just tested expert-tankspank and it's amazingly fast ! If this is due to new code, I must congratulate you _why 
14:46 <@_why> hey thanks MadX`, that's very kind
14:46 <@_why> i do still have a long way to go with speed still, though
14:47 < Bluebie> i just tried to open my chat client in the video one, the icop appears then disapears immidiately!
14:47 < Bluebie> no crashlog or anything
14:48 < Bluebie> I'll try some console-fu against it, maybe I can make it divulge some secrets
14:48 < Bluebie> also if any of you would like a copy..
14:48 < Bluebie> the chat client doesn't actually work :P
14:48 <@_why> do the samples work? or the manual?
14:48 < Bluebie> but a window should at least open!
14:49 < Bluebie> hmm, no
14:49 < Bluebie> even opening it without a ruby file open and shut
14:49 < ChrisColon> same here
14:49 < Bluebie> "LSOpenFromURLSpec() failed with error -10810 for the file /Applications/Shoes.app/Contents/MacOS." comes out on the console..
14:49 < Bluebie> or terminal, rather
14:51 < Bluebie> trying to open an included sample yeilds same result
14:51 < jawbroken> this might help: http://www.nopaste.com/p/aM1ClcJU6
14:52 < Bluebie> I think that's more because the ./shoes script wasn't used, which seems to do some magic to make things work
14:54 <@_why> yep, that's it jawbroken, missing libx264
14:55 < MadX`> could someone remind me the command to build with video support
14:55 < MadX`> rake VIDEO=1 ?
14:56 < Bluebie> huh o..o
14:56 < Bluebie> but doesn't shoes always break if you use shoes-bin or shoes-launch instead of the 'shoes' shell script on mac os?
14:56 <@_why> yep, that's it
14:57 < MadX`> looks like it doesn't work :/ But first I'll check deps ;)
14:58 < jawbroken> i was just double clicking the icon there, by the way, worked last mailing list build
14:59 < MadX`> deps are ok
14:59 < Bluebie> ooh o_o
14:59 <@_why> okay here we go
14:59 <@_why> http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r799.2-intel.dmg
15:00 < MadX`> Okay so after some tests, here's what I've noticed :
15:00 <@_why> win32 builds:
15:00 < MadX`> expert-minesweeper: completely screwed when switching levels
15:00 < MadX`> simple-menu: segfault.
15:00 <@_why> (video) http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r799.exe
15:00 < MadX`> and video support seems to be broken on my install
15:00 <@_why> (novideo) http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r799-novideo.exe
15:02 <@_why> powerpc: (novideo) http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r799-ppc-novideo.dmg
15:02 <@_why> linux: (novideo) http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r798-novideo.run
15:02 < MadX`> http://pastie.org/231953 for the segfault
15:03 < Bluebie> This new build works great on my mac ^_^
15:04 < elib> _why, I'm not wild about the unchangable default dir that shoes installs itself into on Windows
15:04 < Bluebie> _why, I'm still not wild about the rather crummy scrolling support on OS-X
15:04 <@_why> okay, good, MadX` i'm seeing the same
15:05 < Bluebie> the only other mac app that scrolls like this is... *shuvver*... mozilla <_<
15:05 < elib> this TankSpank game is AMAZING
15:05 <@_why> elib: you like to store your stuff outside of Program Files?
15:05 <@_why> do you mean scroll wheel Bluebie?
15:06 < Bluebie> I mean like if you use a mighty mouse or a trackpad, neither of which have wheels per say.. but both send wheel events I suppose o_o
15:06 < elib> why: outside of Common Files, for sure. NSIS lets you prompt for dir, with default
15:06 < Bluebie> these input devices scroll one pixel at a time, not in large chunks or numbers of 'lines'
15:07 <@_why> Bluebie: it's too fast right? like it's like sliding around on an ice level in a video game?
15:07 < Bluebie> not so much too fast
15:07 < Bluebie> well it is too fast
15:07 <@_why> elib: okay, great, i'll add that
15:07 < Bluebie> but more it seems to kind of wait for you to scroll a certain amount of pixels and then suddenly scrolls a huge chunk
15:08 < elib> _why, I can help with NSIS, I recently did some stuff with it. Looking at your .nsi file now
15:08 <@_why> brilliant, thankyou eli
15:09 < Bluebie> I would guestimate it's waiting till I scroll down about 20-30 pixels or so and then jumps about 50-60 in the windows sort of 'x amount of lines' style of scrolling
15:10 < Bluebie> though I think the windows API's give off some suggestion as to how many pixels exactly to scroll too, I remember seeing something like that somewhere when I was reading about windows support of horizontal scrolling
15:10 < MadX`> for the minesweeper bug I reported, I haven't tested if it was a Shoes bug or a bug relative to the app itself
15:10 < Inan> :D
15:10 <@_why> okay elib, Bluebie, those are noted in ditz
15:10 < Bluebie> I don't think shoes is scrolling as manically fast as it used to though.. this seems more bareable
15:11 < Bluebie> neat ^_^
15:11 <@_why> MadX`: it's a big in the minesweeper app
15:11 < MadX`> ok
15:11 < Bluebie> is it just me or is the font rendering suddenly a lot nativer on os-x? :)
15:12 < elib> where is this Ditz?
15:12 <@_why> it's in the bugs/ folder when you check out with git
15:13 < Bluebie> be good if the text beside each checkbox on the shoes packager window caused the checkbox to toggle when clicked
15:13 < MadX`> also, as we reported on the ML, widgets aren't working that well :/
15:14 < Bluebie> also, how quick should packaging be? what should we expect means 'it's dead' time wise?
15:14 < Bluebie> it seems still dead to me, bummer. Nice progress bar though. Makes the rest of the packager look ugly
15:15 <@_why> did it make the exe, dmg, run files?
15:16 < Bluebie> where's it supposed to make them? in same folder as source .rb file?
15:16 <@_why> yah, right next to it
15:16 < Bluebie> I only tried dmg.. there is a dmg!
15:16 < Bluebie> awesome, it worked!
15:17 < eljay> where is this packagermajig?
15:17 < Bluebie> could packager also build shy's?
15:17 <@_why> eljay: start shoes with `shoes -p`
15:17 <@_why> sure Bluebie! definitely
15:17 < eljay> aha!
15:18 < ChrisColon> hangs for me while "working on a .run for Linux", it created a .run file, but it's only 12 kb. The .exe is 82kb and the .dmg is 52kb
15:18 <@_why> it's done then
15:18 <@_why> the .run is smaller
15:18 < ChrisColon> ah, great ^^ That's the #1 thing I was waiting for, working packaging :)
15:18 <@_why> the closing screen needs to be finished, definitely on the list for today
15:19 < eljay> damn that's a nice progress bar
15:19 < Bluebie> might be niftier to put the shoes app in a zip than a dmg
15:19 < Bluebie> I know dmg's are kind of the standard, but with a zip, when it gets downloaded by safari it silently magically unzips and you get a nice .app there you can run without fiddling about with mounting and unmounting stuff
15:20 < ChrisColon> Safari does the same for DMG files, if the dmg has that option set
15:20 < Bluebie> ooh
15:20 < Bluebie> set that option then!
15:20 < Bluebie> stuff zip :P
15:20 <@_why> yeah it would be nice to really fill out the packager with a lot more options
15:20 < Bluebie> and pretty pictures, that thing is a blight on the beauty that is shoes
15:20 < Bluebie> a shortcut key for the manual would also be nifty
15:20 < eljay> does the packager actually do anything? it just sits there looking purdy
15:21 < MadX`> be back later
15:21 < Bluebie> eljay: yeah, it sits there looking hung
15:21 < ChrisColon> An option that would be really really great would be the ability to include extra files inside the .dmg, like a manual or a license
15:21 < Bluebie> but it actually has done the packaging, look in the folder where your thing you're packaging is in
15:21 <@_why> try ⌘-?
15:21 <@_why> command-?
15:21 < Bluebie> that's console..
15:22 <@_why> oh i think command-slash is console
15:22 < Bluebie> no, command-shift-? just makes the help menu open and puts focus in the leopardy search boxy thing
15:23 < Bluebie> can we disable that leopardy search box thing since it's useless in shoes?
15:23 < ChrisColon> command-? works for me
15:23 < elib> ok, I'm just going to let go of git right now, it is too much hackfulness for one day
15:23 < Bluebie> ChrisColon: you on tiger?
15:23 < gdp> how to run ./shoes-0.r798-novideo.run on linux
15:23 < ChrisColon> Bluebie: No, on Leopard 10.5.4
15:23 < Bluebie> weird
15:24 < gdp> I get some erro in shoes console
15:24 <@_why> gdp: try `./shoes-0.r798-novideo.run -- --help`
15:24 < jawbroken> command-? (command-shift-/) works as Bluebie described, for me
15:25 <@_why> oh and send me that error, for sure
15:25 < Bluebie> if anything was going to make the manual open, it aught to show in the menu anyway, and nothing shoes for manual
15:26 <@_why> they must reserve command-? for the leopard help
15:26 < Bluebie> indeededly
15:26 < ChrisColon> I'm on german Leopard, maybe that's why it works for me
15:26 < ChrisColon> different keyboard layout
15:26 < Bluebie> aha!
15:26 < Bluebie> does german keyboard not have a key with both / and ? on it?
15:27 <@_why> you're going to have to move to german to get that fixed, blue
15:27 < ChrisColon> Nope. I have the ? on the ß key :)
15:27 < Bluebie> I'd rather learn semaphore
15:28 < Bluebie> then I could have interesting one sided conversations with planes
15:31 < Bluebie> this new shoes does crazy things with scrolling
15:31 <@_why> okay so you guys who are using the packager
15:32 <@_why> is the stuff it's spitting out working for you?
15:32 <@_why> hollow DrErnie
15:33 < ChrisColon> Works
15:33 < eljay> works fine
15:33 <@_why> i should also mention that building dmgs under windows generally crashes shoes
15:34 <@_why> windows can do exe and run okay
15:34 < Bluebie> works for me ^_^
15:34 <@_why> and linux and osx are fine with all three
15:34 <@_why> and i got exes working on powerpc yesterday
15:35 < Bluebie> @_why check out the crazy scrolling action on leopard (and maybe others) when running shoes-chat-client.rb from examples in http://github.com/Bluebie/legs/tarball/master
15:35 <@_why> so it should be okay with all three
15:35 < Bluebie> scroll down and crazyness ensues
15:35 < eljay> it didn't crash when i tried building dmg on windows but it just did nothing
15:35 <@_why> eljay: so it didn't actually make any files?
15:36 < eljay> nope, .exe works fine but dmg just sits there
15:37 <@_why> so you're trying to open the dmg on a mac and it won't go
15:37 < eljay> oh i'm not trying to run them, just testing the packager
15:38 <@_why> i would bet that if i can fix the crash i'm seeing, it'll starting working for you as well
15:39 <@_why> some bad salami is gumming up the works
15:40 < eljay> just packaged up class-book and it fails to open the yaml file
15:41 <@_why> mrtsunami: you still there?
15:41 < mrtsunami> _why, yes, I am
15:41 < mrtsunami> (no pun intended)
15:42 <@_why> tell me, would it help if we had a separate channel for people who are just learning shoes?
15:43 < DrErnie> Updated th Getting Started page to link to recent builds and _why's common questions: http://ihack.us/2008/07/10/shoesfest-2008/
15:43 <@_why> i want to keep debugging, but i think the bug reports would interrupt a more casual howto discussion
15:43 < mrtsunami> _why, I really don't think it makes too much of a difference.
15:44 < mrtsunami> I'm happy here, and I don't think you could debug to the point where I'd not be happy.
15:44 <@_why> okay, perfeck
15:44 <@_why> so, mrtsunami, and anyone else new to shoes, is there anything you want to start learning?
15:45 <@_why> or should we just start with how to write a simple prog and get it going?
15:45 < mrtsunami> _why, I just got back from the library, I'm installing at the moment. :P
15:45 < eki_> is there anyway to get the fill/stroke for a Shape?
15:46 < richardmonette> @why a really good thing to show how to do is use threads to keep a responsive UI during long processes
15:46 < eki_> also, is it okay to stash stuff in a Shape's style array (eg, if I want to attach a custom flag to a Shap for my own purposes?)
15:46 <@_why> there isn't but that needs to be added, i actually played with that a bit yesterday
15:46 < richardmonette> thats the biggest problem ive had with shoes
15:46 <@_why> yes eki_, you totally can
15:47 <@_why> it's true, threads can be a huge nuisance with shoes, depending on the platform
15:47 < eki_> okay, I can use that instead of fill/stroke to keep track of what I have / haven't done to a shape : ))
15:47 < ChrisColon> +1 for threading, using threads crashes Shoes really often for me, it would be great to know if it's because I'm doing it wrong or because it's a bug
15:47 < ak_avenger> i've tried using threads before, not in shoes, and I think I don't understand how they work
15:47 < Bluebie> I think my next tiny github project will be a shoes addon to do jquery sort of css style selection against shoes dom.. use :id styles and junk :P
15:48 <@_why> okay, three votes for threads is good enough for me
15:48 < richardmonette> im not 100% sure threads is the best way to achieve a responsive UI during long running processes but its what ive been doing so dar
15:48 < DrErnie> _why:  you might want to "cache" a collection of common newbie questions on a wiki page or something, as they come up
15:48 < Bluebie> threads crash shoes? well that explains why my chat client crashes so much!
15:48 <@_why> okay, yeah, let's do that DrErnie
15:49 < tunys> oh, hey it's _why
15:49  * tunys has to go take a shower
15:49 < Bluebie> Hiya tunys
15:49  * mrtsunami makes bad shoes pun and suggest tunys does so with shoes.
15:50 < ChrisColon> Bluebie: I used threads in 3 Shoes apps I wrote, and in one it works flawlessly after some tweaking here and there, so it doesn't have to crash, but in the other two apps I wasn't able to make it work
15:50 <@_why> so ruby threads are green threads, they aren't actual system threads, let's start with that
15:50 < Bluebie> The soundtrack to _why's poignant guide is also a good soundtrack to Shoes
15:50 <@_why> what ruby does is set up a system alarm
15:50 <@_why> and every time the alarm fires, it switches threads
15:50 < tunys> hey Bluebie, see ya later
15:51 < richardmonette> im assuming all the normal race conditions and data sharing issues affect ruby threads? even if they are 'green threads'?
15:51 <@_why> the alarm is sort of like a signal
15:51 < Bluebie> richardmonette: yes indeedy
15:51 < Bluebie> but without the benifits of stuff going quick on multicore chips
15:51 <@_why> like when you press ctrl-c and your app receives an interrupt signal
15:51 < richardmonette> does ruby have mutexes, signalling etc?
15:52 <@_why> no, actually, you don't get all of the same race conditions with ruby threads
15:52 < ak_avenger> race conditions^
15:52 <@_why> ruby threads are a bit safer in reality than normal threads
15:52 < Bluebie> you don't? news to me!
15:52 < Sobe> test
15:52 < Bluebie> good news day ^_^
15:52 <@_why> i mean yes you get race conditions
15:52 < richardmonette> so for example, two threads can count up the same variable and youd get the expected results as opposed to the regular threading mixups?
15:52 <@_why> but you don't see data sharing violations as frequently
15:53 <@_why> no, that sort of race condition still happens, for sure
15:53 < richardmonette> ah ok
15:53 < Bluebie> is it threadsafe to have an array and push an object in to it, then .delete it out?
15:54 < richardmonette> i made an app that gets flickr images and downloads them locally, which can take a while so threads needed
15:54 < richardmonette> it works fine, but there isnt a tutorial on it or anything
15:54 < richardmonette> so i just stumbled blindly around until it worked
15:54 <@_why> Bluebie: unpredictable, you probably want a mutex
15:55 < Bluebie> when a timer block runs, is that running in a ruby thread, a native thread, or is the main thread stoping for a while to do it?
15:55 < Bluebie> a mutex? o_o
15:55 <@_why> that sounds cool, richardmonette, and i have some good news related to that
15:55 < elib> OS-style mutex???
15:55 < gdp> shoes-0.r798-novideo.run:  most of the samples files are running fine , shoes working on Linux
15:55 <@_why> when a timer block (or any event) runs, it runs in the main thread
15:55 < Bluebie> I shall read about mutex's!
15:56 <@_why> everything runs in the main thread unless you start a thread yourself
15:56 <@_why> however, i don't intend for shoes to always be like that!
15:56 < richardmonette> it would be nice if shoes images supported web urls instead of having to resort to ruby downloader
15:56 < Bluebie> so there's just some kind of a 'main loop' type thing going over those things?
15:56 < Bluebie> seems like kids having to learn about mutex's to use timers right would be antishoesian
15:56 <@_why> shoes does support web urls as of about a month ago
15:56 < richardmonette> looks like i need to update!
15:57 < ak_avenger> what if the timers started their own threads, automatically?
15:57 <@_why> you're right, bluebie, that's exactly why i am hoping to move more of the gui into other threads
15:58 <@_why> timers are totally free to start their own threads
15:58 < Bluebie> in chap 3 - the parts of ruby + chunky bacon, on the soundtrack to _why's poignant guide, is that mouthorgany thing a sample from an old Gorillaz song or an actual instrument? I like it!
15:58 < Bluebie> anything that reminds me of The Gorillaz is generally good though :P
15:59 <@_why> oh uh it's a melodica
15:59 < Bluebie> _why: I don't understand how getting more of the UI in to threads helps the threadsafeyness issue
15:59 < Bluebie> ooh that's neat!
15:59 <@_why> let's talk about the challenges on each platform really quick
16:00 < Bluebie> the UI already is in the main thread O_o
16:00 <@_why> so ruby's green threads and all your windows are all really in one thread
16:00 <@_why> this is a cause for slowness, but it makes things simple for now
16:01 < Bluebie> yup ^_^
16:01 < gdp> Linux novideo working, is Linux video coming? what is the difference
16:01 < Bluebie> gdp: the difference is novideo lacks support for videos
16:01 <@_why> on linux, we use a `select` loop, which is a really efficient way of switching between ruby threads and the gui
16:01 < Bluebie> like I use with sockets! ^_^
16:02 < Bluebie> right?
16:02 < richardmonette> if ive got shoes-0.r396-curious-intel how old is that now?
16:02 < Bluebie> richardmonette: very very old
16:02 < richardmonette> haha
16:02 <@_why> on windows, i use the `PostMessage` loop to run ruby calls when the window is bored
16:02 < Bluebie> richardmonette: those are your grandpa's shoes
16:02 < richardmonette> http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/shoes/wiki/DownloadShoes
16:02 <@_why> so, that means that on windows, running ruby is secondary to the painting stuff
16:03 < richardmonette> this is all showing Jan 2008 updates?
16:03 < Bluebie> those are 'releases'
16:03 < eki_> you want recent builds, not download shoes
16:03 <@_why> richardmonette see the post on ihack.us
16:03 < Bluebie> we'll be making one at the end of the month called Raisins :)
16:03 <@_why> DrErnie lists some builds that are just minutes old, for each platform
16:04 < richardmonette> *very embarrased
16:04 < ak_avenger> 'the painting stuff' you mean drawing the window's visual elements?
16:04 <@_why> no no, hardly, you are well-respected richardmonette
16:04 <@_why> threads on osx are triggered through a timer
16:04 < Bluebie> yes richardmonette, we're all honoured by your lovely presence. You've been a real delight! ^_^
16:05 < jonuts> hooray for shoes day!
16:05 < Bluebie> that seems... wasteful
16:05 < Bluebie> Hooray! ^_^
16:05 < richardmonette> is there somewhere i could post my flickr example?
16:05 <@_why> so, threads on osx, in my experience are very flakey and i am investigating using macruby to get things moving much smoother on osx
16:05 < mrtsunami> three cheers for shoes. :P
16:05 < richardmonette> maybe get some feedback on what i tried to create
16:05 < mrtsunami> richardmonette, pastebin?
16:05 < Bluebie> richardmonette: I could set you up with an ftp if you'd like :)
16:06 < richardmonette> pastebin?
16:06 < Bluebie> richardmonette: pastie.org
16:06 < Bluebie> will work great if it's just a single source file and not a bunch of files together needed
16:06 <@_why> or you could put it on the-shoebox.org
16:06 < richardmonette> ill make a shoebox project
16:07 < richardmonette> its just one file
16:07 < eljay> anyone feel like throwing some ideas my way to experiment with? my lack of imagination is astounding
16:07 < eljay> i'm currently just playing with examples
16:08 < Bluebie> eljay: take some photo's of your hand in different poses and angles, and them make a rock paper scissors game using the pictures in 'image' elements
16:09 < ak_avenger> then rig it so that the program predicts your next choice based on previous unconscious patterns in your rock-paper-scissors choices
16:09 < Bluebie> that can be for extra points :P
16:09 < eljay> that went from sounding simple to mind boggling ^^
16:09 < Bluebie> but yeah, you could hook up a tiny neural network or something and make the shoes app actually learn! :O
16:09 <@_why> gdp: what linux distro are you on?
16:09 < Bluebie> eljay: do the simple bit first :)
16:10 < Bluebie> and if you want to do more you can fiddle with neural networks or genetic algorithms or whatever
16:10 < gdp> Ubuntu Linux gdp 2.6.24-19-generic #1 SMP Wed Jun 18 14:43:41 UTC 2008 i686 GNU/Linux
16:10 < elib> sorry, _why, I have to go do the parent-visiting tour now
16:10 < eljay> by first you mean only that bit right? :)
16:10 < Bluebie> I think an evolving dna doodad would be kinda fun to code
16:10 < elib> basically, add MUI_PAGE_DIRECTORY to your pages, and you get the target parent-dir into $INSTDIR
16:10 <@_why> gdp: http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r801.tar.gz
16:10 < Bluebie> eljay: just do the bits you want to do :)
16:10 < eljay> i shall return after a brief luncheon
16:11 < ak_avenger> genetic algorithms!
16:11 <@_why> to get video, follow the instructions at the bottom of the README
16:11 < elib> then, and only then, I suggest you combine it with the ${AppVersion} variable
16:11 < gdp> thanks
16:11 < Bluebie> Hiya ashbb!
16:11 <@_why> it also has a list of libs to install
16:11 < ak_avenger> those kick ass, i made one for evolving equations that add up to a number you ask for
16:12 < ashbb> Hi Bluebie!
16:12 < Bluebie> You aren't late, right on time! ^_^
16:12 < richardmonette> http://www.the-shoebox.org/apps/59
16:12 <@_why> elib, eljay: see you around, very good to have your help
16:12 < richardmonette> flickr thing i am working on
16:12 < elib> hope to work on it later tonight, save room on the shoe-tree
16:12 <@_why> good to see you, ashbb
16:12 < elib> err, "it" is shoes, not the nsis file (it's full of _whystuff, don't wanna break it)
16:13 < Bluebie> _why: not being able to drag url's from safari in to shoes and have it download the url's content and run it as ruby makes the shoe box less fun
16:13 < ak_avenger> I think i have a shoes app on here somewhere that uses a genetic algorithm to find the biggest circle that fits between a bunch of other circles without overlapping
16:13 < ashbb> Genetic Algorithms? Here? : http://www.ai-junkie.com/ga/intro/gat1.html
16:13 < ak_avenger> yeah
16:13 < ak_avenger> at the end of that article
16:14 <@_why> okay, gonna merge your nsis idea now, elib
16:14 < Bluebie> wouldn't neural be better for rock paper scissors? at least for predicting..
16:14 < ak_avenger> there's a list of 'other things to try'
16:14 < ChrisColon> Oh, I just remembered I wanted to ask something. _Why, you had this Ruby code in HacketyHack to download stuff with Ruby whilst updating a progress bar. Would it be okay to use that code in one of my Shoes apps? I improved it a bit, I added error handling, download resuming and stuff
16:14 < ak_avenger> the circles thing is one of them, and someone I know decided to solve that problem, in Shoes
16:14 < Bluebie> I would imagine given the amount of choices in rock paper scissors, the creativity of evolution would be less valuable than the sneaky know it all predictiveness of gooey brain matter
16:15 < ak_avenger> yes, probably
16:15 < ak_avenger> i've never done anything with neural networks
16:15 <@_why> go for it, ChrisColon, please do it already
16:16 < ChrisColon> Thanks a lot :)
16:17 < Bluebie> god we're good at complicating rock paper scissors
16:17 < Bluebie> lets do tic tac toe next!
16:17 < ChrisColon> Ha, Tic Tac Toe was the first thing I ever wrote with Java. It's fun to write :)
16:17 < Bluebie> could we use a bayesian classifier to judge people's IQ number over the course of five games of tic tac toe?
16:18 <@_why> no come on do a semaphore game, i want to be jenna having a one-sided conversation with planes!
16:18 < Bluebie> iunno, with only one mouth, i'd have to hold the other paddle with my tail >_>
16:19 < Bluebie> or make super light styrofoam paddles that attach to ears!
16:19 < richardmonette> how does shoes handle gems that have been installed into the standard ruby libs?
16:19 < Bluebie> None of you steal that idea. That's totally the brilliant idea I need to become a miiiiiilionair!
16:19 < richardmonette> right now ive been doing stuff like $:.push("/Users/richardmonette/Documents/ruby projects/rflickr/lib/")
16:19 < Bluebie> semaphore paddles for horses!
16:20 < richardmonette> there must be a better way!?
16:20 < ak_avenger> to_learn << [neural_nets, bayesian_analysis, semaphores]
16:20 < Bluebie> richardmonette: it doesn't, it uses it's own gems thingo
16:20 < ashbb> I wrote two tiny Shoes apps with GA. I'm going to post it on ShoesBox tomorrow.
16:20 < eki_> is there anyway to change the fill or stroke of a shape?
16:20 < richardmonette> so i have to install all my gems twice?
16:20 < eki_> oh, clear, probably?
16:20 < Bluebie> richardmonette: before your 'requires' add Shoes.setup do; gem 'whatever gem'; end
16:21 < Bluebie> add more gem statments for others, and the gems will download and install in to shoes as needed when the user uses your app!
16:22 < richardmonette> ah cool
16:22 < eki_> nope, no clear for Shape...
16:22 < richardmonette> is it possible to remove a version from the shoebox?
16:23 < Bluebie> eki_: but you could clear the thing the shape is inside of and redraw them
16:23 < Bluebie> or replace the shape element with a new element
16:23 < [1]phon> shoes syntax bother me, why not make it as SVG or povray compatible?
16:23 < ropiku> sinatra
16:24 < Bluebie> [1]phon: I will only answer that with this judgemental japanese emoticon
16:24 < Bluebie> Are you ready for it?
16:24 < Bluebie> here it is.
16:24 < Bluebie> o..o
16:24 < richardmonette> @why is it possible to remove versions from the shoebox?
16:24 < Bluebie> the dots are nostrils
16:24 < richardmonette> does everyone here have twitter?
16:25 < Bluebie> meanwhile... _why: it'd be cool if someday shoes's image element could load an svg file
16:25 < Bluebie> I do!
16:25 < [1]phon> ddragon me on twitter
16:25 < kuremmu> i wondered about an inconsistency in Shoes error handling (windows r751). sometimes you get a console, sometimes you get a blank app and have to pull up the console.
16:25 < [1]phon> shoes can be adobe air if we work on it
16:26 < ak_avenger> oh no! you can't type more text in a textbox than what fits in its width! this is unacceptable, how will people type ' OR 1=1; DROP TABLE users;-- into my tiny username field?
16:26 < Bluebie> [1]phon: Just use adobe air.
16:26 < [1]phon> I am but I also like shoes
16:26 < Bluebie> We aren't trying to make Adobe AIR... we're making shoes!
16:26 < eki_> okay, slightly inconvienent not being able to manipulate shapes... I suppose I can replace them with image blocks and then redraw the images...
16:26 <@_why> richardmonette: i'm not sure how versions work on the shoebox
16:26 < [1]phon> or XUL, JAVAFX,Silverlight, prism lol
16:27 < Bluebie> ak_avenger: on which platform?
16:27 < richardmonette> _why: who is responsible for the shoe box?
16:27 < Bluebie> Shoes is being invented specifically so _why doesn't have to use XUL
16:27 <@_why> bluebie: i was going to do it but the svg deps were a bit big, would be a great extension to shoes
16:27 < Bluebie> yeah, totally
16:27 < [1]phon> we can learn alot from the big gun
16:27 <@_why> richardmonette: jeremy ashkenas is his name
16:27 < Bluebie> does an imageblock get some kind of array of pixels or something so we can shove pixels out and do junk like that, processing style?
16:28 < [1]phon> svg is comming hooray!!!
16:28 < richardmonette> does he have an email address at which to send him scintillating conversation?
16:28 < ak_avenger> i'm using windows
16:28 < Bluebie> [1]phon: nobody said that o_o
16:28 < [1]phon> _why did i was going to do it but the svg deps were a bit big, would be a great extension to shoes
16:28 < Bluebie> _why: or better yet, do widgets have some way to get at a raw pixel array and shove stuff in it?
16:29 < richardmonette> _why: does he have an email address at which to send him scintillating conversation?
16:29 < [1]phon> can the main windows make trasparent?
16:29 < Bluebie> activesupport is a great extension to camping 2.0, but it's not a part of camping 2.0, it is an extension
16:29 <@_why> richardmonette his email is jashkenas at gmail
16:29 < Bluebie> [1]phon: Nope, seriously though, try AIR
16:30 < [1]phon> I did and love it but the sandbox give me headache while shoes not
16:30 < Bluebie> Adobe Air already is an Adobe Air, with support for fun stuff like vector graphics, freeform windows... and... um...... surely other stuff too!
16:31 < kuremmu> any thoughts about forking christian neukirchen's bacon to make it shoes-aware? or is bdd unshoelike?
16:31 <@_why> kuremmu there's a guy named phlip on the shoes list who's been working on some kind of shoes testing lib
16:31 < Bluebie> kuremmu: maybe that could be your project!
16:32 < Bluebie> BDD isn't my cup of tea.. but surely some people somewhere think it's pretty nifty!
16:32 < Bluebie> testing frameworks are like code versioning servers and linux sound servers, we seemingly can never have enough of them
16:32 < ChrisColon> I tried to understand BDD by looking at other people's specs, but then I saw that they don't understand it either :)
16:33 <@_why> oh hey on the topic of threads, i wanted to get some ideas from those of you who have been using them in shoes
16:33 <@_why> one of the main reason people have been using threads is for downloading things
16:34 <@_why> i'm think of adding some tight platform code for downloading things that'll keep you away from threads
16:34 < Bluebie> a member of my fanclub is seemingly mascerading on an irc server using my old nickname and acting like old me as a way of being old me back to life after new me said I wasn't especially interested o_o
16:34 <@_why> i have to do it anyway for images
16:34 < ChrisColon> That would be great
16:34 <@_why> i'm wondering if you're using threads for anything else
16:34 < richardmonette> downloading stuff is probably the biggest reason i need threads
16:35 < ChrisColon> I just used it for updating the progressbar while downloading YouTube videos and Podcasts and for a game I wrote that displays a bunch of Flickr pics and you have to guess which search term was used
16:35 < Bluebie> how about download(url), returns an object which responds to methods like progress #=> 0.0 .. 1.0, .size, .path, and a 'finished' event?
16:35 < ChrisColon> so, 100% downloading
16:35 < Bluebie> or finish..?
16:36 < kuremmu> big job involved with a testing tool would be bunging in some webrat or selenium like stuff to test the ui. does Shoes have some DOM analog that can be queried?
16:36 < Bluebie> kuremmu: elements have 'contents' properties which is like 'children' in the dom
16:36 < Bluebie> and I believe they also have a parent
16:36 < Bluebie> they have a style method which returns a hash of the elements styles
16:37 <@_why> okay, this is good to hear
16:37 < ChrisColon> It would be great if you could implement multi threaded downloading then though. That's really great when downloading thumbnails because they are so small that they don't download at a high speed
16:37 <@_why> yeah bluebie's nailed what i was thinking
16:37 < jonuts> does shoes.git not build on osx?
16:37 <@_why> see, i want images to act more like they do in a browser
16:37 <@_why> when you place an image: like `image "static/shoes-logo.png"`
16:38 <@_why> it'll place an empty image there at first
16:38 < Bluebie> you could do some trickery to delay downloads such that only 3 or so run at a time and the rest wait in a queue to start, like a web browser, for the sake of the network
16:38 <@_why> then it'll resize it once it gets the header
16:38 <@_why> and then it'll work on displaying it
16:38 <@_why> all from a thread, so the gui can move on
16:38 <@_why> and you'll have a load event
16:39 < richardmonette> you should be able to set the size too, and maybe a scale mode for such images
16:39 <@_why> right, it'll have to be a queue with the threads idling
16:39 < richardmonette> so it doesnt get the size and then mess up the layout
16:39 <@_why> absolutely, it'll use the same :width and :height styles you can use to resize today
16:39 < Bluebie> oh righty, you could start the threads with 'sleep', and then wake them up as wanted, correct?
16:40 < richardmonette> cool
16:40 < Bluebie> _why: did the aspect ratio image sizing thingo get implemented yet when only one of width or height is specified like html?
16:40 <@_why> it should be very easy to do since the image cache is isolated in memory from the rest of shoes
16:41 <@_why> well, okay, let's plan on testing that next shoes day
16:41 <@_why> and we'll see if we can get it pretty stable on the list between now and then
16:42 < Bluebie> be nifty if images had a 'path' method which returned the local filesystem path of the cache image (if they are indeed in the file system at all..) so people can mess around with all those image tag reading libraries and stuff against the downloaded images in the load event
16:42 < ashbb> I like image block feature. Cool!
16:42 < Bluebie> image blocks need docs
16:43 < ak_avenger> is it normal that my edit_line won't accept more text than what fits in its length?
16:43 <@_why> bluebie, no, i'll add that to the ditz entry that will encompass the entire umbrella of matters related to this feature
16:43 < Bluebie> I have no idea what I can do with them, like blur and glow, how do they work? needs to be in docs
16:43 <@_why> true, effects need to be in the docs
16:44 < ashbb> need docs? What do you mean?
16:44 < Bluebie> ak_avenger: ones on mac os accept more, but when you select all via right click menu, it only selects the visible part... arrow key manipulation moves back and forth through it as if the edit_line is actually wrapping around on to multiple lines
16:44 < kuremmu> the checked method for clicking checkboxes and radio buttons programmatically comes up missing (on windowsr751). is it on the todo? or does it exist under another name?
16:44 < Bluebie> _why: One thing I'd really like to see is the ability to specify the amount of blur on a glow
16:44 < Bluebie> so you can use a glow to add a solid funky outline to something
16:44 <@_why> kuremmu: do you have a quiz mark at the end: `checked?`
16:44 < Bluebie> or have a blurry fuzzy glow, or whatever
16:45 <@_why> inner and outer glows
16:45 < kuremmu> also, how about programmatically clicking buttons, etc.? or graying out options?
16:45 < Bluebie> when I looked at the shoes source a bit ago, it looked like all glow took was one float, a radius type thing
16:45 <@_why> glow(2) gives a 2 pixel radius outer glow
16:45 <@_why> glow(2, :inner => true) gives a 2px inner glow
16:46 < Bluebie> sure, but what if you want a glow 2 pixels in radius, that's solid, not blurry?
16:46 < Bluebie> so it's like a solid inked outline?
16:46 < kuremmu> checked? tells me the state of a button, but i want to set the state from the program.
16:46 <@_why> kuremmu: `checked=`
16:46 <@_why> type `shoes -m` to bring up the manual, kuremmu
16:46 < eki_> okay, my latest problem:  I've draw a rect on to an image, I then call the image's clear method to draw over the rect... calling clear (even with an empty block) segfaults...
16:46 < Bluebie> maybe an outline effect is more suitable.. that is just how I hacked together outlines out of glows in image editors like fireworks..
16:47 < kuremmu> checked= doesn't work for me. Shoes claims no such method.
16:47 <@_why> ak_avenger: what platform?
16:48 < eki_> my segfault is on linux...
16:49 < Bluebie> darn, I'm getting that same weird crash again on this new build as before
16:50 < ak_avenger> i,m on windows
16:50 < ak_avenger> vista, if it matters
16:54 < Bluebie> Hiya nertzy ^_^
16:54 < nertzy> hello
16:55 < Bluebie> Gosh, it's so busy here you can barely notice the corpses!
16:55 < ak_avenger> i hadn't seen them!
16:55 < nertzy> Ssh just drape this canvas over them...
16:55  * Bluebie nods and drapes
16:55 < nertzy> My what a fine and burlappy carpet we have!
16:56 < Bluebie> indeed ^_^
16:56 < eki_> does clear work from within an event handler (like motion)?
16:56 < nertzy> It may be a bit bumpy and squishy here and there, but it sure is splendid
16:56 < Bluebie> eki_: it sure should!
16:56 < Bluebie> just be careful you aren't clearing the whole app including the motion event handler! (unless you want it to cease to exist after it first runs)
16:57 < Bluebie> so, some_thing.clear { sure! }, while clear { not so much! }
16:57 < eki_> I crash outside of my motion handler as well...
16:57 < eki_> does clear work from within a widget?
16:57 < Bluebie> is it clearing something inside the widget itself?
16:58 <@_why> okay, sorry
16:58 < eki_> the widget contains a single stack that contains an image ...
16:58 <@_why> a friend came over to borrow a book
16:58 < eki_> it's a memory image with a single rect drawn on it... I'm just trying to clear the image and redraw a rect of a different color...
17:01 <@_why> okay, yes, same on xp, ak_avenger
17:01 < ChrisColon> someSlot.clear is what I have trouble with when using Threads. I download pictures in a thread and display them. Then I clear the slot where the pictures are in, replacing them with new pictures and Shoes crashes. At least that's what I think it is that makes it crash. I'm pretty sure. Like.. More than 54% sure.
17:02 < ak_avenger> so fo now, I guess i'll just make it big enough so users can enter malformed SQL of a reasonable length
17:04 < ashbb> @_why: I have a same trable of this thread. http://www.mail-archive.com/shoes@code.whytheluckystiff.net/msg01162.html
17:04 < ashbb> fixed?
17:04 < ashbb> *trouble*
17:04 < Bluebie> hey you guys, if you'd like to see a shoes app with a simple sprite class and a pony sprite that totally walks, prepare for your dreams to come true! http://bluebie.no-ip.biz/~jenna/Archive.zip
17:05 < Bluebie> I would have made a game, but when it came to designing the level graphics, I realised that in fact, I also need gameplay, and not just a cunning plan to make pretty pictures
17:05 < Bluebie> I searched and searched, but there was no gameplay to be had
17:05 < eljay> i have returned from that interesting concept called life, back to experimenting
17:06 < ashbb> @Bluebie thanks. now downloading.
17:07 < paulv> heh, # fire lasers?
17:08 < Bluebie> Epona is god of horses, donkeys, and mules
17:08 < Bluebie> she must protect them
17:08 < Bluebie> lasers are easy to animate
17:08 < Bluebie> eye lasers
17:08 < Bluebie> of destruction
17:08 < Bluebie> we're talking megawatt lasers here, folks
17:09 < Bluebie> everybody feel free to make an actual game of it, but the graphics for standing still and flying are unfinished
17:11 < ejmiller> @Bluebie nice app. Works just fine on ubuntu
17:11 < kuremmu> horse eye lasers are fine. just avoid laser bears and mutant fire clams. hardcore rpg people will recognize the reference.
17:11 < ashbb> Just downloaded. then unzip.
17:11 <@_why> ashbb: you're on windows as well, right?
17:11 < Bluebie> nowonder I don't recognise it ^_^
17:12 < Bluebie> I mean, even _why's music involves lasers
17:12 < Bluebie> everything good has lasers
17:12 < ashbb> yes WindwosXP.
17:12 < ejmiller> how about adding some old time cowboy background music
17:12 < gdp> Linux:shoes samples/simple-video.rb gives errors :    no memcpy module matched "any" etc
17:13 < ashbb> Wow! a real horse. walking! Great!
17:13 < Bluebie> sure, the video element can play mp3's and stuff too :)
17:13 < ak_avenger> it works!
17:13 < [1]phon> donkey walking cool
17:13 < Bluebie> that's the magic of shoes, folks. It even gives you the pony your parents wouldn't
17:13 < ak_avenger> the horse is walking across my monitor on vista
17:13 < Bluebie> it's not a donkey dangit
17:13 < Bluebie> her name is Shorty
17:13 <@_why> okay, ak_avenger, that's fixed
17:14 < Bluebie> in real life
17:14 < [1]phon> 3d next??
17:14 < ak_avenger> thanks, _why
17:14 < Bluebie> shivver me timbers! 3d is unshoesian!
17:14 < kuremmu> very nice horse, Bluebie
17:15 < Bluebie> unless someone comes up with a brilliantly simple way to make 3d...
17:15 < ak_avenger> i think it's possible
17:15 < Bluebie> like... horse (x, y, z, :walking)
17:15 < Bluebie> just magically make models
17:15 <@_why> http://github.com/why/shoes/commit/5124335
17:15 <@_why> new builds will be out again in about three hours
17:15 < [1]phon> as long as you import collada or obj format
17:16 < Bluebie> _why: could you make the edit line on mac os x work like an edit line?
17:16 < ak_avenger> math class has taught me that extra dimensions aren't really that intimidating, just more work to calculate
17:16 < Bluebie> instead of like a text area that just happens to be one line hight?
17:16 < ak_avenger> whoa, Bluebie, your program crashed when i closed it
17:17 < [1]phon> it crash on me too
17:17 < ak_avenger> Assertion failed!
17:17 < Bluebie> :(
17:17 < Bluebie> it doesn't crash mac os..
17:17 < paulv> hmm, worked for me
17:17 < [1]phon> how do I get files from github?
17:17 < Bluebie> but there is bad code on 41
17:17 < ak_avenger> cairo_surface.c, line 405
17:17 <@_why> ashbb: so does the blue rectangle fill the whole window?
17:17 < [1]phon> same
17:18 < paulv> git clone git://github.com/why/shoes.git
17:18 < [1]phon> and download the the zip file??
17:18 < Bluebie> _why: I don't like how when you do a rect with no stroke but a fill, and you give it integers for it's coords, the edges are fuzzy, like they're 0.5px too close to the center of the rect
17:19 < kuremmu> did some more experimenting with checked=. outside the check block, checked= apparently has no effect.
17:19 < Bluebie> a rect aught to be sharp unless rotated
17:19 < ejmiller>  same here on ubuntu - shoes-bin: /build/buildd/cairo-1.6.0/src/cairo-surface.c:405: cairo_surface_destroy: Assertion `((*&(&surface->ref_count)->ref_count) > 0)' failed.
17:20 <@_why> yeah maybe i should turn off antialiasing if lines are mathematically straight
17:20 < kuremmu> inside the block, it does nothing until you click the checkbox. then it locks the checkbox to the value given to checked= and seemingly ignores further clicks.
17:21 < gdp> I am on linux , anybody else?
17:21 <@_why> i've only recently been giving attention to making checkboxes and radios work, so i'm sure there are bugs, what platform was it again you're on?
17:21 < kuremmu> windows r751
17:21 < ejmiller> I'm using linux (Ubuntu Hardy)
17:22 < gdp> ejmiller: shoes video is working for you
17:22 < ejmiller> gdp: let me check
17:22 < paulv> I'm on gutsy
17:22 < paulv> and video works
17:22 < paulv> except for the bug I'm about to send to the list
17:23 < ashbb> _why: so does the blue rectangle fill the whole window? YES. and crash. WindowsXP Shoes 0.r751
17:23 < ejmiller> gdp - the simple video sample works
17:23 <@_why> ashbb, kuremmu: http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r799.exe
17:23 < kuremmu> i'm thinking about this checkbox issue right now because a possible bacon fork (chunky?) would have to be able to send clicks etc. to the app to test it
17:23 < gdp> paulv I am on hardy. I get erros starting with " no memcpy module matched "any""
17:23 < Bluebie> I don't get how come my game.rb crashes on some mysertious other OS people use and makes weird errors about trying to (:walk).call, while :walk is used in my code, .call isn't..
17:24 < Bluebie> shoes doing something weird with my Symbols?
17:24 < ejmiller> gdp: I'm using shoes raisins (0.r724)
17:24 < paulv> gdp: I dont get that error. are you bulding from git?
17:24 < jballanc> Good morning.localtime all! Happy Shoes Day!
17:24 < Bluebie> _why: I'm afraid you will have to experience the walking horse also
17:25 < Bluebie> she's like a budgee in a mine, if she stops working, we know there are bugs about
17:25 < Bluebie> walking..
17:25 < Bluebie> darn it
17:25 < Bluebie> it's 1:25am
17:25 < ak_avenger> i am sorry and will use linux like normal people in the future, Bluebie :(
17:25 < Bluebie> I best be going to sleep guys
17:25 < mrtsunami> 'night Bluebie, sleep well
17:25 < Bluebie> ak_avenger: no need to be sorry! I'm using a mac!
17:25 < jballanc> See ya Bluebie
17:25 < ChrisColon> Good night bluebie
17:25 < gdp> paulv I compiled from shoes-0.r801.tar.gz , link give earlier by _why
17:25 < Bluebie> wondows users are people also!
17:26 < ak_avenger> heh
17:26 < mrtsunami> Actually, I'm definitely a robot
17:26 < ejmiller> good nite Bluebie
17:26 < [1]phon> _why, is it possible to include chipmunk in the future version??
17:26 < paulv> gdp: you're running samples/simple-video.rb or something else?
17:26 <@_why> see bluey
17:27 < jballanc> So, I still have to shower, eat, drive to work, etc...but I wanted to jump in with an idea to share
17:27 < ashbb> Good night, Bluebie. See you :)
17:27 <@_why> okay recent builds page is anew
17:27 < jballanc> How does everyone feel about a Shoes IRC client?
17:27 < jballanc> I found this: http://rubyforge.org/projects/ruby-irc/
17:27 < Bluebie> I promise you guys I'll learn what the heck a mutex is and make legs not so liable to eat it's own butt soon
17:27 < jballanc> ...but I have no idea how good it is
17:27 < [1]phon> mutex is a semaphore
17:28 < gdp> paulv yes , i ran samples/simple-video.rb and tried an mp4 on my system
17:28 < Bluebie> jballanc: I personally feel that IRC protocol is rubbish and that it's incredibly difficult to build any decent GUI clients in it
17:28 < Bluebie> though it's a great protocol for terminal chat clients
17:29 < Bluebie> _why, please download that archive.zip off me before I go if you haven't already, as when I go to sleep, so does that server
17:29 < eki_> I reduced my code to just the bare minimum to crash shoes:  http://pastie.org/232039
17:30 < eki_> any thoughts?
17:30 < kuremmu> Bluebie, on windows r751 when you end game.rb cairo throw an assertion failed from cairo-surface.c CAIRO_REFERENCE_COUNT_HAS_REFERENCE(&surface->ref_count)
17:30 <@_why> okay got it, bloob
17:31 < Bluebie> cya guys! ^_^
17:31 < Bluebie> kuremmu: tell _why all about it ^_^
17:32 < ak_avenger> so _why, i just installed r799 and i still can't type more text than what fits in an edit_line... is that fix supposed to be in r799?
17:33 <@_why> no, that'll be the next set of builds
17:33 < ak_avenger> oh ok
17:33 <@_why> r799 is from a few hours ago
17:33 <@_why> you guys want to try game.rb with r799?
17:33 < ashbb> _why: with 0.r799, blue rectangle fill just size. Good! but then mouse leave, nothing happen. not change to red again???
17:33 < paulv> gdp: weird, simple-video.rb works for me with 0.r801
17:35 <@_why> gdp: so you click the 'play' link and nothing happens?
17:37 < gdp> _why I get some more error lines, one is "no suitable access module for `http://whytheluckystiff.net/o..e/adventure_time.flv'"
17:38 <@_why> are these in the shoes console or in your term window?
17:38 < gdp> _why  in the term window
17:40 <@_why> sounds like some vlc plugins are missing
17:40 < eki_> this time without the widget: http://pastie.org/232050
17:41 <@_why> you're on the latest gutsy, is it?
17:42 < eki_> I built shoes from git for linux
17:42 < eki_> just updated when you announced the latest build
17:42 < gdp> _why I am on Hardy Heron
17:42 < richardmonette> does shoes support IO.popen?
17:42 < richardmonette> system() works
17:42 < richardmonette> but IO.popen doesnt seem to
17:43 <@_why> eki_: crashes here, too, looks like imageblock.clear needs a fix
17:43 < kuremmu> -why,I just tried Bluebie's horse thiing on windows r700 and the cairo assertion fail is gone. it terminates error free
17:43 < kuremmu> um r799
17:43 <@_why> you guys are doing great, this is so totally helpful
17:44 < eki_> thanks for looking at it _why
17:44 <@_why> oh good to hear, kuremmu
17:44 <@_why> gdp, i'm on hardy, too, it's what i do most shoes dev on
17:45 <@_why> lemme see what vlc packages i've got installed
17:45 <@_why> libvlc0 libvlc0.dev vlc vlc-nox vlc-plugin-pulse
17:46 <@_why> i wonder if i've got the plugin path wrong for you
17:46 <@_why> do you have stuff in /usr/lib/vlc?
17:46 <@_why> oh that's libvlc0-dev actually
17:46 < gdp> _why  I will check my vlc plugins and install yours
17:47 < eki_> btw, is there a way to change the mouse cursor (like it changes when over a link?)
17:48 <@_why> yeah you can use `cursor=`
17:48 <@_why> right now it only takes :hand or :arrow
17:49 <@_why> so, if you're in an event, you can do `self.cursor = :hand`
17:49 < eki_> great, thanks : ))
17:52 < ChrisColon> doing self.cursor = :hand crashes Shoes for me. I put it in a hover {} block of a stack and when I hover over the stack, Shoes crashes.
17:53 < kuremmu> i spotted a little doc glitch. n the manual keypress doc, the list of special keys runs off the edge unless you fullscreen the manual.
17:54 < kuremmu> you see the first few then, on the next line, and f12. easy not to realize there are more there.
17:54 <@_why> okay, thanks, ChrisColon. in addition, it's not working for me on linux.
17:54 < eki_> the self you refer to is Shoes::App ?  not, say, a Stack?
17:55 < ifthendo> is anyone able to use IO.popen from within a shoes app?
17:55 < ifthendo> system() works for me but not IO.popen
17:55 < [1]phon> _why I think u should read this http://www.infoq.com/news/2008/07/stream-oriented-ui
17:56 < MadX`> hi again
17:56 < [1]phon> so shoes is multithread?
17:57 < [1]phon> and this http://www.infoq.com/news/2008/07/metaprogramming-roundup
17:58 < rick_2047> sup people
17:58  * mrtsunami sups
17:59 <@_why> eki_: yeah, when you're build a shoes page, `self` is Shoes::App the whole time
18:00 <@_why> but if you're nested inside a stack and you call like `clear` or `para` or something, it'll send it to the nesting you're at
18:00 < MadX`> _why, have you got more feedback about no video from linux git-based builds ?
18:00 <@_why> are you using rake VIDEO=1 to build?
18:00 < MadX`> yep
18:00 <@_why> it builds okay?
18:00 < MadX`> ah
18:00 < eki_> ah, slightly inconvienent for a Widget... .... okay, so it'll get sent down to the Widget as self?
18:00 < MadX`> yeha, but it seems that it nows links with libvlc
18:01 < MadX`> let me try the sample-video
18:02 < MadX`> seems to work but I got no video, propably due to my low bandwith
18:02 < MadX`> I'll try a local file and tell you
18:03 < gdp> _why Installing  vlc vlc-nox vlc-plugin-pulse solved my problem . now video works , thank you.
18:03 < ak_avenger> http://pastie.org/232071 i just made a login window that gives an invalid username or password error if you give it anything but a specific string of malformed SQL
18:04 < ejmiller> I'm new to IRC and have an etiquette question - is it okay to stay connected while I'm away at a meeting so I can continue to log or should I disconnect?
18:04 < MadX`> ok so sound is okay but I got no video 
18:04 < paulv> ejmiller: it's okay to stay connected.
18:04 < ejmiller> thanks paulv
18:04 < ak_avenger> next i'm going to make it work with different strings of malformed SQL
18:04 < rick_2047> ashbb, hey
18:05 < ak_avenger> and i'm going to have a "current user count" or something at the bottom of the window
18:05 < ak_avenger> and it's going to drop to 0 if you drop the users table
18:05 <@_why> oh good, gdp
18:06 < MadX`> Ok, _why , forget about the no video issue, I think it's due to my totally broken X server :D
18:07 < hiffy> do y'all think writing a music collection manager/player in shoes would be a fool's game?
18:07 < MadX`> It'd be totally easy :D
18:08 < hiffy> i've been itching to do something along those lines for years now, as a burgeniong collecting habit makes it harder to keep track of
18:08 < ak_avenger> reading id3 tags in ruby is crazy easy
18:09 < ak_avenger> if you use the right libraries
18:09 < livinded> reading id3 tags in general is crazy easy
18:09 < hiffy> more the tracking of 10k+ items and renaming things
18:09 < hiffy> of course now i have to go afk
18:09 < ak_avenger> i dunno i saw some people doing byte-level reading of id3 tags and it looked much more complicated than it needed to be
18:10 < rick_2047> is there something i can use to debug my shoes code
18:10 < livinded> I've done byte level reading, it's not that bad
18:10 < eljay> id3 tags are simple, i've done a php reader for them before
18:10 < livinded> all the work I've done with id3 has been in C though
18:10 < livinded> the structure of the headers is well documented and you just allocate space for the struct and read it in the from the file
18:11 < tstrokes> rick_2047: depends on what your debugging ...but normally info, warn, error, and debug messages do the trick
18:11 < rick_2047> how do i get those messages
18:12 < livinded> hopefully I'll be able to join into the hacking soon
18:12 < livinded> should be off work in a few hours
18:12 < MadX`> rick_2047, you have to bring the console
18:12 < rick_2047> o
18:12 < MadX`> alt+/ or command+/ (on osx)
18:12 < rick_2047> k
18:13 < MrSkittle> Is it shoes day?
18:13 <@_why> okay, got some cursor fixes checked in, a few gtk crashes
18:13 < tstrokes> MrSkittle: yep
18:13 < eki_> _why: if it helps, I get lots of "undefined method 'cursor=' for (Shoes::App "Shoes")" errors in the Shoes console when I try to change the cursor... then after moving the mouse a while Shoes crashes...
18:13 < livinded> I hate how you can't use a keyboard hotkey to move the window in focus to another space like you can with virtual desktops in KDE
18:13 <@_why> let's see, still got ashbb's `leave` issue and eki_'s `imageblock.clear`
18:13 < rick_2047> MrSkittle, the whole world knows it
18:13 < eki_> ah, I see you may have fixed it while I was typing : ))
18:14 < MrSkittle> oic
18:15 < MadX`> :)
18:16 <@_why> ahh this red pen smells like shoeshines
18:17 < MrSkittle> lovely!
18:17 <@_why> unfortunately the legal pad i'm writing these bugs down on is also kind of red
18:17 < MrSkittle> oh noes!
18:17 <@_why> this is a bad idea
18:17 <@_why> i can'
18:17 <@_why> can't seem to find anything else
18:17 < ChrisColon> You could maybe.. You know. Use a texteditor?
18:18 < ChrisColon> I haven't written on paper since school. And nobody could make me do it ever again.
18:18 < MrSkittle> You could write it on your hand!
18:18 < rick_2047> ChrisColon, way to go save the environment
18:19 < ChrisColon> rick_2047: More like, way to go save my hand from cramps
18:19 <@_why> my whole hand is going to smell like shoeshines
18:19 < rick_2047> lol
18:20 <@_why> people on the street will go "look at that guy's hand" and everyone will be like "must be a rubyist"
18:20 < MrSkittle> You don't want that sort of reputation? :D
18:20 <@_why> oh i'm thrilled about this, mister skittle
18:20 < ChrisColon> It would even remind people of redhanded
18:21 < MrSkittle> red has a lot of associations...
18:21 < MrSkittle> Republican, communist...
18:21 < MrSkittle> chinese...
18:21 < MadX`> blood
18:22 < MrSkittle> Sometimes goth chicks wear red when they run out of black things to wear
18:22 < rick_2047> MadX`, state the obvious
18:22 < MadX`> with red on your hands people weel be more likely to tell "hey this guy is a murderer"
18:22 < MrSkittle> or a goth chick
18:22 <@_why> i tell ya, i love blood
18:22 < MadX`> and you'll have to answer them "no, it hasn't been released yet"
18:22 < dowaito> Blood: I can't live without it.
18:23  * MrSkittle knee-slap
18:23 < tamalw> Sorry for the late arrival… two quick questions/confirmations: Shoes.app :resizable => false isn't working for me and neither is close() or exit(). On OS X, Shoes r751. Is there a newer build I should be using? Last time I tried I couldn't build from source.
18:23 <@_why> haha, good one MadX`
18:23 < MadX`> :)
18:24 <@_why> tamalw: try http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r799-intel.dmg
18:24 <@_why> i'm not sure about `close` and `exit` but there were definitely fixes to resizable
18:24 < tamalw> merci!
18:25 < MadX`> de rien ?
18:25 < MrSkittle> gesundheit.
18:25 < MrSkittle> :D
18:26 < MrSkittle> Hmm... I should get a Mac to look more rubyist-like...
18:26 < rick_2047> which lib do i need to install the video support??
18:26 < rick_2047> on linux
18:26 < MrSkittle> ya have VLC?
18:26 < rick_2047> MrSkittle, no
18:26 < MadX`> vlc-devsomething
18:26 < MrSkittle> get that, also the dev files
18:27 < rick_2047> k
18:27 < MrSkittle> just open your favorite GUI to your favorite package manager and search for VLC
18:27 < eki_> _why, is cursor= supposed to work after your last commit?  I'm happy to report it doesn't crash for me, and the value of self.cursor is changing as I want it to, but the actual cursor remains the same...
18:27 < rick_2047> MrSkittle, i dont have a gui package management
18:28 < MadX`> apt-get will do ;)
18:28 < rick_2047> MadX`, i am not on debian
18:28 < rick_2047> i am on arch
18:28 < MadX`> yaourt then ?
18:28 < ChrisColon> then yaourt will do it
18:28 < rick_2047> arch has its pacman
18:28 <@_why> yeah eki_ it's true, seeing that too
18:28 < MadX`> oh yes, right
18:28 < MrSkittle> arch also has an online thingy to search packages
18:28 < MadX`> so pacman will do it :P
18:29 < ChrisColon> but yaourt has pretty colors
18:29 < MrSkittle> I've never heard of anyone using arch programming in Ruby
18:30 < rick_2047> well here i am
18:30 < rick_2047> people always say i do strange things
18:30 < rick_2047> i am a strange combination
18:31 < ChrisColon> Arch is great for programming, it's so easy to install up to date versions of programs, even directly from the repository with yaourt
18:32 < MrSkittle> well puncture my liver and call me a woman...
18:32 < rick_2047> MrSkittle, why
18:32 < MrSkittle> I dunno
18:32 < MadX`> _why, it'd be very nice if one can do slot :margin => [5, 10 + gutter, 5, 10], like in CSS, but maybe it's not as neat as specifying each margin
18:33 < livinded> life without a liver would suck, you'd have nothing to destroy by drinking heavily
18:33 < MrSkittle> My dog is shedding
18:33 < MrSkittle> wtf?
18:33 < livinded> well except maybe your kidneys
18:33 < MrSkittle> That's my desktop!
18:34 < MrSkittle> I'm going to go see what's going on...
18:34 <@_why> okay, eki_, git pull
18:34 <@_why> MadX` oh i like that
18:34 < MadX`> I think it would make code really much faster
18:34 < tunys> WTFasaurus???
18:35 < MadX`> and is still very readable
18:35 < livinded> oooooo, today is free slurpee day
18:35 <@_why> yeah much more compact
18:35 < livinded> 7-11-08
18:35 < eki_> _why:  excellent, looks like it's working now : ))
18:36 < MadX`> maybe you can as well implement the variants css has, but just this shortcut is enough
18:36 < tunys> Hmm... looks like a Freenode problem...
18:36 < ak_avenger> cascading shoes sheets
18:36 < tunys> back to the laptop now!
18:37 < MadX`> and I think you're not really into allowing lots of shortcuts :D
18:37 < MadX`> ak_avenger, yeah !
18:37 <@_why> lots of shortcuts is my middle name
18:37  * MrSkittle sits down, keeping his eye on tunys
18:37 < MadX`> tunys, yeah, there was a global notice about that
18:37 < MrSkittle> oic
18:38 < MrSkittle> I need to call somebody
18:39 <@_why> okay you can call someone
18:39 < MrSkittle> thank, _why
18:39 <@_why> just as a general rule, it's okay to make calls on shoes day
18:39 < tamalw> Phew, I was concerned about that
18:39 < MrSkittle> I thought it would be, but I wanted to make sure.
18:40 <@_why> i really appreciate that
18:40 <@_why> i like to approve requests
18:40 < MrSkittle> I like to make requests.
18:41 <@_why> making requests is alright
18:41 <@_why> if you're into that sort of thing
18:41 < MrSkittle> It's a minor compulsion
18:41 < rick_2047> is there anyway i can make an cross compiled programm with shoes?
18:42 <@_why> you mean cross-compiling shoes itself? or turning a .rb into a .exe?
18:43 < rick_2047> .rb into .bin
18:44 < MrSkittle> I shouldn't have made that call
18:44  * MrSkittle face desk
18:45 <@_why> i know, i can't believe i approved it
18:45 < MadX`> hmm, I thing I just caught a bug
18:45 <@_why> rick_2047: run `shoes -p`
18:45 < MadX`> think*
18:45 < rick_2047> _why, thanks i didnt knw anything bout that
18:46 < MrSkittle> MadX`: lie in bed, drink soup, and I'll get a note from your doctor.
18:46 < MadX`> :p
18:46 < MrSkittle> My client is spycho.
18:46 < MadX`> whoa this is awesome
18:46 <@_why> or on osx, it's command-p
18:46 < MrSkittle> psycho, more like
18:46 < MadX`> Shoes can do color negativization stuff
18:46 < tamalw> Does confirm() work? I followed the example in the manual (http://pastie.org/232102) but it doesn't appear to be drawing the oval
18:47  * rick_2047 just cant think of anything to work on
18:48 < MadX`> I think this is due to negative floating point width
18:48 < MadX`> _why, http://pastie.org/232104 if you can test this, here the right stack has a white background
18:48 < MadX`> while it should be black
18:50 <@_why> okay MadX`, new :margin syntax is in the bucket
18:50 < ChrisColon> If you're on Mac OS X, just press Ctrl + Alt + Apple + 8 and it'll be black ;)
18:50 < MadX`> yeah \o/
18:52 < MadX`> oh it's even funnier with two different background colors :)
18:52 <@_why> tamalw: works for me on windows and linux, you're on osx?
18:52 < tamalw> _why: yes, I should have included that.
18:53 <@_why> oh, good find, MadX`, that's a bug
18:53 < MadX`> floating points width always have been kinda buggy :P
18:53 < MadX`> but it's much better now
18:54 <@_why> use just 0.2 for now
18:54 <@_why> -0.2 actually means 0.8
18:54 < MadX`> oh
18:54 <@_why> negative means "100% minus x"
18:55 <@_why> so -0.2 => 100% - 0.2 and -72 => 100% - 72 pixels
18:55 <@_why> but still it should wrap to the next line
18:56 < MadX`> yeah, I know, but sometimes I just get stupid
18:56 <@_why> no you don't, you are very highly regarded at all times
18:56 < MadX`> :)
18:56 < AppleShoes> Hello, this is DrErnie and friends in Cupertino
18:57 <@_why> hullo DrErnie and pals
18:57 < MadX`> Heya AppleShoesers !
18:57 < AppleShoes> I'm trying to round up some interns with the lure of free food :-)
18:57 < MadX`> by the way, _why, I tested the array margin thing and on linux it just prints the array in the terminal I launched the app from
18:58 <@_why> things are going splendidly thanks to your powerful news proliferation skills
18:58 < AppleShoes> We'll see if anyone shows up, or if I have to eat all four pizzas myself :-P
18:58 < tamalw> Hello DrErnie, I couldn't make it to Cupertino this week (and not for lack of trying)
18:58 < AppleShoes> _why: gotta love the Ruby community :-)
18:59 < MadX`> well in fact it "p"s the array
18:59 <@_why> hey so DrErnie, are there many other rubyists in your dept?
19:00 <@_why> oh you're right
19:00 <@_why> okay MadX` git pull again
19:00 < MadX`> :)
19:01 < AppleShoes> _why: hard to say.  There's lots of interest in Ruby as well as Rails, but I'm not sure the ratio.
19:01 < AppleShoes> _why: plus, we have a very large campus, with lots of new people for the summer
19:01 <@_why> sure, i imagine
19:01 < AppleShoes> [I'll leave this account on for the room to monitor, while I go login as DrErnie elsewhere]
19:02 < MadX`> rebuilding shoes
19:02 < tamalw> _why: Fwiw, still no dice on "c = confirm("Drink fizz?"); debug c;" on OS X, just an empty string.
19:02 < MadX`> okay, seems to work
19:03 < MadX`> what is the order for the margins ? top right bottom left or left top right bottom or something ?
19:03 <@_why> yeah i'm just rebuilding the latest here tamalw, i wonder what's up
19:03 <@_why> [x, y, w, h]
19:03 < MrSkittle> I'm going to play Timesplitters.
19:03 <@_why> since that's the order used throughout the rest of shoes (in `rect` and `oval`, for instance)
19:03 < ChrisColon> Btw, if it isn't too much to explain. What does the "source" command do when you are doing "source use-deps"? Just curious, I didn't know the command and man source doesn't say anything about it, just lists a lot of commands
19:04 < MrSkittle> And I'm going to go to Arcade mode.
19:04 < MrSkittle> And make a scenario where all the characters look like my client
19:04 < MrSkittle> and it will be me verses them
19:05 <@_why> oh that's a good one, chances are very high of that one getting approved
19:05 < tamalw> I need a good story for my wife for when she wakes up and discovered that I've bricked her iPhone (iTunes activation is erroring out)
19:05 < MrSkittle> _why: really?
19:05 < MrSkittle> :F
19:05 <@_why> ChrisColon that just adds that stuff to your environment vars
19:05 < MrSkittle> or :D
19:06 < ChrisColon> _why: Ah I see, thanks :)
19:06 <@_why> really, i am sitting here quite astounded at the level of approval that's about to get
19:07 < MadX`> ok so [x, y, w, h] is equal to [l, t, r, b]
19:08 <@_why> certainly i speak of: full approval without encumberments
19:08 <@_why> oh, right, yes
19:08 < MadX`> fine, but you'll got to specify that in the manual
19:09 <@_why> yes, i'll say (left, top, right, bottom) in the manual
19:09 < MadX`> right
19:09 < MrSkittle> thanks, _why
19:09 < MadX`> because if you can newb hackers that have made HTML before, it will disturb them :p
19:10 < MrSkittle> Hmm... which level looks the most like my room...
19:11 < MrSkittle> "Disco"
19:11 < MadX`> my previous sentence means nothing :')
19:12 <@_why> don't worry, i take it to mean something very deep and profound
19:12 <@_why> okay, tamalw, yes, confirm is broken
19:12 < tamalw> _why: are you confirming that?
19:13 <@_why> i am issuing a statement of TRUE to that remark
19:13 <@_why> that is all
19:13 <@_why> and working up a patch quickly
19:13 < tamalw> got it ;)
19:13 < tamalw> this patch will be relevant to my interests
19:16 < eki_> is there anyway to check the existance of an image?  For example, my program uses two images for speed during testing I can load them off my harddrive, but for portability I can grab them from the web...
19:16 < eki_> so I'd like to try loading them from local disk, and if they aren't available load from the web...
19:17 < MadX`> hmmm
19:17 < tamalw> File.exist?("/path/to/file")
19:17 < MadX`> voilà
19:18 < MadX`> this is ruby, not shoes :)
19:18 < hiffy> are there any decent ORM packages for ruby? I'd be tempted to just use ActiveRecord but I have a feeling that's frowned upon
19:18 < MadX`> DataMapper / Seqel
19:18 < MadX`> Sequel*
19:18 <@_why> eki_: another way is to use `imagesize`
19:18 < kuremmu> I have a snippet i don't understand. http://pastie.org/232128
19:18 <@_why> imagesize("/path/image.jpg")
19:19 <@_why> that way you can even check to be sure it's actually an image
19:19 < kuremmu> when you comment out the para commands, the flow backgrounds disappear.
19:19 < kuremmu> also, changing the flows to stacks changes nothing appearancewise
19:19 < kuremmu> and removing the outer stack ditto
19:20 < ifthendo> does anyone know is IO.popen works in shoes?
19:20 < ifthendo> system() does
19:20  * MrSkittle was just cornered and shot to death by a horde of his client
19:20 <@_why> okay tamal, that's fixed
19:20 < MadX`> kuremmu, that's because without the para's, the flow are 0 pixel tall
19:20 < MadX`> so you won't see em
19:20 <@_why> http://github.com/why/shoes/commit/2228b9f
19:20 < tamalw> I can rest today knowing that I've contributed in some way
19:21 <@_why> new builds in an hour
19:21 < eki_> thanks : ))
19:21 < MadX`> and changing flows to stack will make a big difference when you'll have more than one element in your slots
19:21 < kuremmu> nuts. got so engrossed, i boiled my daily bowl of beans dry
19:22 <@_why> that is psychadelic kuremmu
19:22 < MadX`> kuremmu, also, using :top, :left, :right or :bottom is kinda like position:absolute in css, it takes the element out of the normal flow (or stack :P)
19:23 < MrSkittle> My client's AI is stupid...
19:23 < MrSkittle> But it's effective enough to shotgun me back a point
19:23 <@_why> yeah, kuremmu, when you give something a fixed coordinate, it doesn't effect the dimensions of the `stack` or `flow` containing it
19:24 <@_why> i love this: gradient(cornflowerblue, tomato)
19:24 < MrSkittle> :D
19:24 < MrSkittle> gradient salad :D
19:26 < ifthendo> @_why does IO.popen work in shoes?
19:26 <@_why> southwestern style
19:27 <@_why> ifthendo, hey, you know, i haven't tried, it should be okay
19:27 < tamalw> Heading into work. I can reserve a room, order pizza, log on as AppleShoesSacramento, and sit all by my lonesome :(
19:27 < ifthendo> @_why aha! it doesnt
19:27 < ifthendo> but system() does
19:27 < ifthendo> so odd
19:27 <@_why> are you on linux?
19:27 < ifthendo> osx
19:28 <@_why> okay, i'll play with it, too
19:28 < ifthendo> Shoes.app :height => 50, :width => 200 do
19:28 < ifthendo>   @e = edit_line
19:28 < ifthendo>   button "Speak!" do
19:28 < ifthendo>     system("say " + @e.text)
19:28 < ifthendo>   end
19:28 < ifthendo> end
19:28 < MrSkittle> Gah! Get away from my shotgun, client!
19:31 < paulv> actually, that example shows a scroll bar bug for me.
19:32 < MadX`> gotta love that google search : http://images.google.com/images?q=hand+icon
19:32 < paulv> 50 isn't quite tall enough so I get a scrollbar that is half painted under the edit_line box
19:32 < MrSkittle> I just killed 146 of my client..
19:33 < kuremmu> thanks for the info, MadX
19:33 < ifthendo> @paulv seems to display ok for me on osx
19:34 < paulv> I'm on linux
19:34 < ifthendo> ah
19:34 < MrSkittle> http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/media/folder_8/file_373495.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.renderosity.com/news.php%3FviewStory%3D13544&h=309&w=232&sz=78&hl=en&start=7&tbnid=npDq2zByiYDMuM:&tbnh=117&tbnw=88&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dhand%2Bicon%26hl%3Den
19:34 < MadX`> not this one MrSkittle :D
19:34 < MrSkittle> whoops...
19:34 < ifthendo> say isnt even a supported command on linux as far as i am aware
19:35 < ifthendo> in osx it invokes the speech synthesis system
19:35 < paulv> epos?
19:35 < MadX`> MrSkittle, the one with SHAREFUL HAND ICON written below
19:35 < paulv> anyway, there's festival and espeak for linux, which I have installed.
19:35 < ifthendo> ah cool
19:35 < MrSkittle> that came up in your search for hand i con :P
19:36 < MadX`> Yeah I saw :P
19:36 < MrSkittle> festical is great
19:36 < MrSkittle> festival
19:36 < paulv> ifthendo: changing your example to use IO.popen works for me
19:36 < paulv> I added
19:36 < paulv> speak = IO.popen("espeak", "w")
19:36 < paulv> below @e = ...
19:36 < MrSkittle> I have an alarm clock cron script set up on tunys that brings up festival
19:36 < paulv> and then changed system() to 'speak.puts @e.text'
19:37 < MrSkittle> "Wake up tuna"
19:37 < MrSkittle> :D
19:37 < ifthendo> ill test it
19:37 < MadX`> okay, I've got the logo, the mechanics. But now I need to code this shoes game
19:37 < MrSkittle> What's shocking is just how much this character resembles my client...
19:40 < eki_> _why: okay, my latest crash:  I have a tiny Shoes app that consists only of the single line:
19:40 < eki_> image 'http://www.google.com/intl/en_ALL/images/logo.gif'
19:40 < eki_> I run it once, no problem... I run it a second time and Shoes hangs...
19:40 < ifthendo> using IO.popen kind of works, the command only runs when the shoes app closes
19:41 < ifthendo> if i hit speak multiple times it queues the commands
19:41 < eki_> if I hit CTRL-C, I eventually get:
19:41 < eki_> Gtk-CRITICAL **: gtk_main_quit: assertion `main_loops != NULL' failed
19:41 < ifthendo> when shoes closes it plays
19:41 < paulv> weird.
19:41 < eki_> and then, after the CTRL-C the app loads, with errors in the console about the image not existing..
19:41 < ifthendo> very.
19:42 < paulv> ifthendo: if you add, after the puts, 'speak.flush' what happens?
19:42 < MrSkittle> My client just killed me with a flare gun
19:42 < eki_> actually, this time I have "Hostname not known: www.google.com"
19:43 < eki_> I don't seem to have any local problems with my internet connection, but this is weird enough that I have to wonder...
19:43 <@_why> remind me your platform, eki_
19:44 < eki_> linux, built from git : ))
19:44 < ifthendo> same thing
19:44 < ifthendo> doesnt run until shoes closes
19:45 < paulv> can you paste your code somewhere?
19:45 < ifthendo> ill drop it here again
19:46 < csgui> paste in pastie.org
19:46 <@_why> i can't get it to fail here, but i seems to be trouble with the image cache, i'd guess
19:46 < ifthendo> Shoes.app :height => 50, :width => 200 do
19:46 < ifthendo>   @e = edit_line
19:46 < ifthendo>   speak = IO.popen("say", "w")
19:46 < ifthendo>   button "Speak!" do
19:46 < ifthendo>     #system("say " + @e.text)
19:46 < ifthendo>     speak.puts @e.text
19:46 < ifthendo>     speak.flush
19:46 < ifthendo>   end
19:46 < ifthendo> end
19:48 < DrErnie_> #nickserv
19:51 <@_why> okay, working on ashbb's issue with `leave` right now
19:51 < ec> csgui: don't spam other channels with that kthx
19:51 <@_why> the image cache issue i've written down and i'll take another look on a different linux box
19:51 < MrSkittle> written down on red paper with red ink?
19:52 < MrSkittle> Probably on a red desk so you can't find it :D
19:52 <@_why> i'm working from bono's house
19:52 < csgui> Just a little publicity...
19:53 < markjones> coming in late, has anyone else had problems building from git on Mac OSX 10.5.4?
19:53 <@_why> he painted everything red so that when he takes off his sunglasses everything still looks the same
19:53 < MrSkittle> How'd he know what paint to buy?
19:53 < DrErnie_> _why: DrErnie again, I've created a shorter getting stsarted URL for people who need to retype it: http://ihack.us/shoesfest
19:53 < MadX`> dwemthy's rabbit is definetely to weak :(
19:54 < DrErnie_> _why: I can't run shoes on Mac OS X 10.5.4 Intel; I get "7/11/08 10:54:12 AM [0x0-0x3a03a].org.hackety.shoes[323] dyld: Library not loaded: libx264.56.dylib "
19:55 < cdcarter> if i wanted to do some scatterplotty action with shoes, what would be a good place to start?
19:55 < MadX`> that was fixed in a recent build I think DrErnie_ 
19:55 >> _why changed the topic of #shoes to: you are here, and this is shoes day // http://ihack.us/shoesfest // and this one: http://is.gd/Quz
19:55 < DrErnie_> MadX: Ah, thanks.
19:55 < DrErnie_> MadX: Is it up yet?
19:56 <@_why> oh you're right, the link on the wiki is wrong
19:56 < MadX`> Here's the answer
19:56 < MadX`> or you could use the git repo
19:56 <@_why> http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r799.2-intel.dmg
19:57 <@_why> cdcarter: run `shoes -m` to open the manual and then do searches for "oval", "rect" and "line"
19:58 < cdcarter> awesome, thanks
19:58 < DrErnie_> Trying shoes-0.r799.2-intel.dmg .... success!
19:58 < DrErnie_> Boy, tankspank screams on a Quad Intel Xeon :-)
19:59 < MadX`> _why, I don't know if this have been tackled before, but is there a built-in way to resize a window ?
19:59 < livinded> I want to build a new box on the dual core hafnium cpus
19:59 < livinded> I can't afford the quads unfortunately
20:00 < MadX`> DrErnie_, it's even fully playable without any slow downs on my underclocked core duo (800 MHz per core)
20:00 <@_why> that's a good question, MadX`
20:00 < DrErnie_> MadX; yes, the built-in sample is; but I suspect The SHoebox vectorized version isn't :-(
20:01 < MadX`> ah maybe :/
20:01 < cdcarter> probably a stupid error on my fault, but running shoes -m gives me "LSOpenFromURLSpec() failed with error -10810 for the file /Applications/Shoes.app/Contents/MacOS/command-manual.rb." and trying to run shoes through the GUI also fail, but I dont see any error
20:01 <@_why> yeah i need to take another stab at getting the nicer one to work
20:01 < MadX`> _why, or maybe it's better to open a new window and close the previous one, but this would cause the app to quit, wouldn't it ?
20:01 < DrErnie_> _why: That's what I'm planning to do for my ShoesFest activity :-)
20:01 <@_why> is that 0.799.2 cdcarter?
20:02 < cdcarter> aha, no it isn't
20:02 <@_why> you are too good, Dr. E
20:02  * cdcarter feels stupid
20:02 <@_why> no no, you are a tribute to your species, cdcarter
20:03 < MadX`> well, he's got a PhD in experimental particle physics, so of course he's good :P
20:04 < eki_> What's the recommended way of sharing an app that's one .rb and 2 .png's?
20:04 < livinded> tarball?
20:04 < MadX`> eki_, you could make an archive (tarball, zip) and post it to the-shoebox.org
20:04 < MadX`> or you can make a Shy but I can't help you on this
20:05 < MadX`> well, looks easy from the command line help: shoes -s DIRECTORY
20:06 < eki_> I'll try making a shy, and see how that goes : ))
20:06 <@_why> yes exactly, you can make a .shy
20:06 <@_why> and you can then wrap that in a .exe, .dmg or .run if you want
20:06 < MadX`> I have to try that packaging thing :D
20:08 < MadX`> hmm
20:08 < MadX`> the shy maker seems to hang on "Adding dir"
20:09 <@_why> did it make the shy though?
20:09 < MadX`> seems so
20:09 <@_why> that window is unfinished since it's being rolled into the packager
20:09 < MadX`> hmm no the shy is buggy
20:10 < MadX`> so I should try shoes -p <dir> ?
20:10 <@_why> i'm afraid the packager doesn't understand directories yet
20:10 < MadX`> yep
20:10 < MadX`> ERROR - est une répertoire - dedale
20:10 < MadX`> :(
20:10 <@_why> that would be a good thing to tackle in an hour
20:10 < MadX`> un*
20:11 < paulv> http://pastie.org/232183 segfaults
20:12 < paulv> though maybe that's not the way to do what I want to do.
20:12 < paulv> it crashes with "(<unknown>:20590): Gtk-CRITICAL **: gtk_container_foreach: assertion `GTK_IS_CONTAINER (container)' failed"
20:12 < MadX`> same here
20:13 < MadX`> paulv, the point is that the text method doesn't work
20:13 < MadX`> you can try @code.style(:text => "some code")
20:13 < MadX`> this will work
20:14 < eki_> yeah, shoes --shy also hangs for me at "Adding dir"...
20:14 < paulv> MadX`: that's a decent workaround.
20:16 < MrSkittle> I'm going to play Super Smash Brothers now
20:17 <@_why> you should play nintendogs, i command it
20:17 < cdcarter> nintendogs!
20:18 < MrSkittle> _why: I found a nintendogs cart in a parking lot once
20:18 < MrSkittle> but it didn't work
20:18 < MrSkittle> So i glued it to my sketchbook and got points for using it as "found material"
20:19 <@_why> see, nintendogs gives you points in real life, not just video areas
20:19 < MrSkittle> oh, point as in art class
20:20 <@_why> however the dogs are fake, don't listen to them
20:20 < MrSkittle> is it really that good of a game?
20:20 < stungeye> So, what's the best practice for calling Shoes methods from other objects. In the past I've used the technique used in tankspank. i.e. Declaring a global ($app) within Shoes.app and setting it equal to self. I then use this global to call Shoes methods from other objects.
20:21 <@_why> if you are very needy and respond well to barking pixels, it's probably a great game
20:21 < MadX`> maybe you could also try it with an instance variable, which is less ugly
20:21 < MadX`> Shoes.app { obj = MyClass.new(self); obj.do_something }
20:22 < MadX`> but I'm not sure it will work :/
20:22 <@_why> the global var method isn't good, since on osx you will have several apps running in the same ruby
20:22 <@_why> yeah, pass `self` into your class, that's great
20:22 < MrSkittle> _why: I can't take out my rage on Nintendogs though
20:22 < MrSkittle> unless I torture the barking pixels
20:22 < MrSkittle> but that takes too long.
20:22 < stungeye> okays. thanks.
20:22 <@_why> you can also add methods to the Shoes class and they can be used from any stack/flow/window
20:23 < MadX`> or create widgets :)
20:23 < MadX`> are they still buggy ?
20:26 < eki_> my app is almost entirely within a widget... so far every crash has been unrelated to that fact...
20:26 < MadX`> ok
20:26 < MadX`> there was a bug with stacks recently
20:26 < MadX`> but it must have been fixed
20:30 < paulv> hmm. when I have the manual open, clicking in the scroll bar area where the scroll bar, er, bar isn't (ie to skip to the bottom of the manual page) doesn't seem to work.
20:30 < eki_> I only have one stack in my widget, so I'm not really doing much with slots... I'm really just using it as a canvas...
20:34 < MrSkittle> Ah!
20:34 < MrSkittle> my client has the same character as me!
20:36 < eki_> okay, so in shy.rb... Shy.c is passed a block that updates the shy packager's display ("Adding <file>", and so forth)...
20:37 < eki_> If I comment out the code in the block, the shy packager works : ))
20:37 < eki_> _why: hopefully that'll save you some debug time : ))
20:38 < DrErnie_> Hmm, is there new mojo for 'requiring' modules in Shoes?
20:38 <@_why> eki_ ohh you're right, i changed that a week ago
20:38 < eki_> btw, it'd be super handy if the shy packager could be driven from the command line or rake (get's a little tedious typing all that info into the gui)
20:38 < eki_> HAHAHHHAHAHHAHA : ))
20:42 < stungeye> Okay, I've updated my Boids Swarms to avoid using the Shoes.app global: http://pastie.org/232205
20:42 < MrSkittle> hey, _why, is it okay to ANSWER phone calls on shoes day?
20:43 < stungeye> Seems to run find under Ubuntu, but some friends tell me that it crashes on Windows. Maybe some Windozers and OSxers could try it out???
20:43 < stungeye> thx.
20:46 < ejmiller> stungeye: looks like it's freezing on my Ubuntu
20:47 < stungeye> ejmiller: Full out crashing? Any error messages?
20:48 < ejmiller> get a window, no action, have to kill it - no errors
20:48 < ejmiller> I'll try it again
20:48 < ChrisColon> stungeye: on OSX it gives me this message: uninitialized constant Shoes::Boid
20:49 < ChrisColon> and the window is empty
20:49 < ejmiller> that's funny - works now
20:49 < ejmiller> I'll try it on my Windoze Xp virtual
20:49 < jballanc> Whoops...anyone have the link for the most up-to-date OS X deps?
20:49 < jballanc> I lost my tarball
20:51 < ChrisColon> jballanc: http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/deps/deps-osx-intel-1.6.4-1.20.2.tar.gz these are from why's mailing list post a few days ago
20:51 < jballanc> thanks!
20:51 < ChrisColon> np ^^
20:53 < kuremmu> stungeye, seems ok to me on windows xp shoes r799. birds flock and eat pink balls
20:53 < ChrisColon> _why: The "run this" links in the manual don't work right. Is this known, or something new? Like when I run the first example in Elements/Editbox,Image,Listbox it actually runs the code of the second example
20:54 < jawbroken> stungeye: i get uninitialized constant Shoes:Boid as well, on OSX
20:54 < stungeye> ChrisColon & jawbroken: Any line number referenced with this error?
20:54 < ChrisColon> line 32
20:54 < jawbroken> weird, it worked after the 4th time loading it
20:54 <@_why> aha, well well
20:55 <@_why> this `leave` bug was tied up in some other mouse event troubles on windows
20:55 < ejmiller> stungeye: works on r724 on xp as well
20:55 <@_why> ChrisColon: the "run this" is really new, so how well it works is really up in the air
20:55 < ChrisColon> okay :)
20:56 < ChrisColon> Great idea though, I love it
20:57 < jawbroken> stungeye: if i open it, nothing, if i leave that window open and open it again, it works
20:57 < stungeye> hmmmmm
20:58 < jawbroken> stungeye: moving all the class definitions above the Shoes.app block makes it work fine
20:58 < stungeye> oh? Thanks jawbroken.
20:59 < jawbroken> must be an issue with when things are called/initialised on the different platforms
20:59 < jawbroken> since you are sort of using Boid, Food, etc before they are defined
20:59 < jawbroken> depending on when the shoes.app block is called
20:59 < stungeye> Okay, that makes sense.
21:00 < elib> hello
21:00 < jawbroken> not sure whether your code is supposed to work in shoes or not
21:03 < kuremmu> stungeye, i ran it about 15 times and it ran consistently for me on windows xp r799
21:04 < stungeye> thanks kuremmu.
21:04 < elib> where are we at, build-wise?
21:05 < elib> is there a second build du jour?
21:05 <@_why> very close, about finished with this fix
21:07 < MrSkittle> I've gotta ask...
21:07 < MrSkittle> _why: why "shoes"?
21:07 < cdcarter> shoes are useful
21:07 < cdcarter> ever tried to walk on blacktop without them
21:07 < cdcarter> fucking hurts
21:08 < MrSkittle> it does..
21:08 < elib> mrskittle: try walking a mile in them
21:08 < MrSkittle> :P
21:09 < alloy> It doesn't hurt until you need stitches!
21:17 < jballanc> _why: did you already chase down eki's bug from this morning?
21:18 < jballanc> the one with the @memory_image.clear?
21:21 < eki_> nope
21:21 < eki_> at least not as of the latest code from git
21:21 < eki_> does anybody know if it's possible to center align text in a stack?
21:23 < eki_> also, has anybody tried drag and drop?
21:23 < paulv> edit_line.text = "stuff" doesn't seem to work, either, though it doesn't segfault like edit_box.text= does
21:24 < ChrisColon> eki_: you could put the stack into another stack and then you set margin_left and margin_right in the inner stack to the same value. that makes the stack centered, that's how I did it.
21:25 < eki_> Thanks Chris, I'll give it a try : ))
21:25 <@_why> okay, that's done
21:26 <@_why> let's see, no the @memory_image.clear isn't address, go ahead and create a new image for now: @memory_image = image { }
21:26 <@_why> center aligning text would be: stack { para "Shoes", :align => 'center' }
21:27 <@_why> although, i've made up my mind on adding alignments at the `stack` and `flow` level
21:28 < eki_> align works great, thanks _why : ))
21:30 <@_why> paulv: is that on linux?
21:31 < paulv> _why: yes
21:31 < paulv> _why: it's all gtky in here. i think I got some on me. :-/
21:31 < paulv> the crash is in shoes_native_edit_box_set_text
21:32 < paulv> the GTK_CHILD is causing the failed assertion
21:32 < paulv> the next line is the crash
21:33 <@_why> i wonder what's up, works well here.. are you sending it a symbol?
21:33 < paulv> http://pastie.org/232183
21:33 <@_why> oh wait, yeah
21:34 <@_why> do: edit_line("...") and edit_box("...")
21:34 <@_why> good one, still needs to be fixed
21:35 < paulv> wait, do what?
21:35 <@_why> edit_box "some code", :height => 400, :width => 250
21:37 < paulv> that still crashes.
21:37 < paulv> ...or something weird happened.
21:38 < paulv> nevermind.
21:38 <@_why> okay, git pull, should be better
21:38 < ejmiller> paulv:  the following worked on Ubuntu using r801 > @code = edit_box "some code", :height => 400, :width => 250
21:39 < paulv> okay, it seems to be fixed now
21:40 <@_why> okay, so the outstanding bugs are the `imageblock.clear` and the image cache issue, both from eki_
21:40 <@_why> remind me of anything else i missed
21:40 < paulv> _why: also, clicking in a scrollbar area where the scrollbar isn't (ie to scroll down to the bottom of the manual) doesn't work
21:40 < paulv> on linux
21:41 <@_why> good, yes, thankyou for mentioning that one
21:41 < paulv> _why: also, the video but I sent to the list this morning
21:41 < paulv> s/but/bug/
21:43 < ChrisColon> I think Bluebie mentioned a few days ago that flows work like stacks sometimes. That isn't fixed in the most recent built, I have an app where that happens
21:45 <@_why> == anouncement ==
21:45 <@_why> i'm going to use #sneakers for beginner discussion
21:45 < eljay> hah love the name
21:46 <@_why> i don't know if we'll use it today, because there are so many bugs to address, but we'll just go with it and see, i guess
21:46 <@_why> you know i think "sneakers" is a good name for shoes hackers, actually
21:47 < hiffy> hehe
21:47 <@_why> since the word "sneakers" has hacker roots as well
21:47 < hiffy> i'm much fond of the term sneakernet
21:50 < eljay> surely shoes hackers should be cobblers or something, hmm
21:51 <@_why> shoes hackers that enjoy pie definitely should
21:51 < eljay> mmm pie
21:56 < kuremmu> i lost ajob because of 'sneakernet' once
21:56 < kuremmu> my boss heard the term and thought it was the latest net software. wanted to replace our system with it
21:56 < kuremmu> wouldn't believe that there was no such program
21:58 < DrErnie|away> The Shoebox version of tankspank usually crashes on Vector[] http://the-shoebox.org/apps/43
21:58 < DrErnie|away> But sometimes it crashes on "class Building < Shape", saying the superclass isn't defined
21:59 < remitaylor> is there a way to change the window title/icon for shoes apps?
21:59 < DrErnie|away> Any suggestions? Is the 'require' failing sporadically on Mac OS X?
22:01 < ChrisColon> remitaylor: for the title, Shoes.app(:title => "MyTitle") { your code }
22:01 <@_why> ohh right i remebers that, dr. e
22:02 <@_why> the problem is a conflict between Shape and Shoes::Shape
22:02 < remitaylor> ChrisColon: yay, it works.  what about the icon?
22:03 < DrErnie|away> Ah!
22:03 < stungeye> Is it just me, or do 'animation' blocks run smoother if their content is also wrapped in a 'clear' block?
22:05 < AppleShoes> We now have eight people (and no pizza :-) here in Cupertino!
22:05 < sleepers> bye and many thanks for your work, Shoes is fun, and the idea is so nice, keep up and good luck/pepperino
22:07 < remitaylor> ChrisColon: and it actually still says 'Shoes' ... it's 'Shoes - [title]'.  i like advertising that my cool app uses Shoes but, now that i can distribute Shoes apps (yay packager!!!), i wonder ... can the real window title/icon be changed?
22:08 <@_why> yeah i need to get rid of that "Shoes - " title, that's annoying
22:09 < paulv> is Cecil Coupe here?
22:10 < remitaylor> _why: i like it when i show Shoes apps to coders and they say "what's that shoes icon thinger?" cause i can explain the coolness.  but, when my designer says "why does your app have a shoes icon?  can we make it a badger, instead?" i don't know how to respond
22:11 < ChrisColon> On Mac OS X you could copy & paste a new icon by doing Command + I on the file
22:11 <@_why> yeah, that's sort of tricky
22:11 < paulv> at any rate, his bug is because of the -50 on line 88 of his script: @progressBlock = stack :width => 1.0, :height => -50 do
22:11 < ChrisColon> For windows, there are apps that can do that I think. For linux, no idea
22:11 <@_why> i'm going to have do a similar thing with icons in packager, where they get converted from png/gif/jpeg to each platform's icon format
22:12 < remitaylor> _why: awesomeness.  my badger icon eagerly awaits!
22:13 < MadX`> re
22:14 <@_why> yeah window's will be the tricky one, both because of the ico format and because you have to pack in link four different resolutions
22:14 < MadX`> :/
22:15 < MadX`> _why, do you keep a special changelog for the shoes day ?
22:16 <@_why> yes, it's this red legal pad
22:16 < MadX`> oh yeah
22:16 < MadX`> i forgot :P
22:16 <@_why> but you can use this http://github.com/why/shoes/commits/master
22:16 < MadX`> ok
22:16 < MadX`> I'll give you the logs once I've stripped them from useless infos (such as join/parts)
22:17 < MadX`> so you can put them wherever you want
22:17 < AppleShoes> Just finished a quick tutorial; I recommend simple-timer.rb as a starting point, as it has the basic elements with less scary Ruby stuff
22:17 < jballanc> Hmmm...we've really got to work on that method for using deps on OS X
22:18 <@_why> oh good idea, dr. e
22:18 < jballanc> every time I source use-deps...I can build shoes...and do nothing else
22:20 < DrErnie_> WARNING: don't use rexml on Mac OS X 10.5.4 (e.g, the way the twitter example does).
22:21 < tamalw> Why would that be?
22:21 < ChrisColon> DrErnie_: Why? I use it all the time
22:21 < tamalw> Actually I am using it now :S
22:21 < DrErnie_> Well, be warned, it may have sporadic issues.
22:22 <@_why> okay new osx builds:
22:22 < DrErnie_> Besides, a great ShoesFest activity for someone would be to learn Hpricot and convert examples to use that :-) http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/hpricot/
22:22 < tamalw> Hmm. I shall be warned and fuzzy
22:22 <@_why> (video) http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r811-intel.dmg
22:22 <@_why> (novideo) http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r811-intel-novideo.dmg
22:22 < MadX`> Builds \o/
22:22  * DrErnie_ thanks why!
22:25 <@_why> (ppc/novideo) http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r811-ppc-novideo.dmg
22:25 <@_why> and linux i686 novideo:
22:25 <@_why> http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r811-novideo.run
22:26 < dwtorres> Did shoes have a method called grid?  is so what supplanted it?
22:27 < yakischloba> _why: the new builds should simply install over the old?
22:27 <@_why> no, but you could make a grid from stacks and flows
22:27 <@_why> yeah
22:28 < MadX`> or a widget :)
22:28 <@_why> and windows builds:
22:28 <@_why> (video) http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r811.exe
22:29 <@_why> (novideo) http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r811-novideo.exe
22:30 >> _why changed the topic of #shoes to: it's the shoes day you always wanted // http://ihack.us/shoesfest // http://is.gd/Quz // newbs are in #sneakers
22:30 < ashbb> Good morning. Now 5:30am, Sat 12th July, Japan time. Oops, just woke up. :-P
22:31 < eljay> it allows an install path :o
22:31 < MadX`> 10:30pm here :P
22:32 < zem> g'day
22:33 <@_why> heya ashbb, zen
22:33 < DrErnie_> 1:30 pm here in Cupertino
22:33 <@_why> ashbb: i got that `leave` problem fixed, thanks for finding that one!
22:34 < ashbb> _why: Oh, really? Can I get fixed version?
22:35 < ChrisColon> is there an ask_open_folder method planned?
22:35 < ashbb> okay, downloading 0.r811 now
22:35 < hiffy> DrErnie_: I fantasize that all west coasters go surfing on slow work days
22:35 < hiffy> something about the -8 GMT
22:35 < remitaylor> is it bad if the packager has been "Working on a .run for Linux" for like ... 15 minutes?  :(
22:36 < MadX`> I'm going to eat, see you later ;)
22:36 < eljay> it doesn't show any progress, just makes the file and sits there looking sexy to confuse us all
22:39 < MadX`> DrErnie_, do you still have pizza ? :D
22:40 < yakischloba> Is "The Entirety of Shoes" the API docs?
22:40 < DrErnie_> MadX: no, just fried chicken and Oreos
22:40 < DrErnie_> hiffy: we all fantasize about going surfing; is that close enough?
22:41 < stungeye> Under Ubuntu where are the debug, info, &c, messages displayed? I expected them to output to stdout and display in the console, but I don't see them.
22:41 < hiffy> DrErnie_: yeah, Id say thats about fair
22:42 < eljay> stungeye: Shoes console, Ctrl+alt+/ (on windows, not sure about linux)
22:42 < eljay> maybe just alt+/ actually, unnecessary key by me, what a waste of energy
22:43 < stungeye> alt + / works for ubuntu. thx.
22:43 < stungeye> loggity log
22:43 < eljay> oh dear, just / seems to work, what have i done with my life?
22:43 < ashbb> _why: with 0.r811... Awesome!! completely fixed. `leave` problem has gone. Thank you very much. :)
22:48 < yakischloba> Anyone? Are there any docs other than "The Entirety of Shoes?"
22:48 < DrErnie_> yakischloba: Have you read NKS?
22:48 < eljay> yakischloba: shoes -m loads the built-in manual
22:48 < DrErnie_> yakischloba: more resources listed at http://ihack.us/shoesfest/
22:49 < yakischloba> Thanks.
22:50 < ejmiller> Karate calls to me, see you'll later
22:51 < eljay> interesting use of you'll there
22:54 < zem> insert, shift-tab and mod4 still aren't registering keystrokes
22:55 < zem> can anyone repro that or is it something my system is doing?
22:59 < eki_> I just switched one of my hotkeys with shift-tab and it didn't work for me either...
23:00 < zem>  ctrl_tab, alt_tab and ctrl_alt_tab all work
23:02 < EmanuelC> Hi everyone
23:02 < eljay> ctrl_alt_tab is never going to work on windows
23:03 < eljay> shift_tab just registers as tab
23:06 < zem> oops, yeah, alt-tab doesn't work because windowmanager steals it, but ctrl-alt-tab does
23:06 < zem> but shift-tab doesn't register at all under ubuntu/fluxbox
23:06 < zem> and that's not the wm stealing it because it works in other apps
23:06 < eljay> nope ctrl-alt-tab is a windows shortcut too
23:07 < eljay> it does the same as alt-tab but leaves the window switcher open
23:07 < eljay> instead of just closing it when you release the key combo
23:07 < zem> yeah, window manager stealing it is fair enough - nothing shoes can do about that
23:07 < zem> but insert and shift-tab look like bugs
23:08 < eljay> indeed they do
23:08 < eljay> ctrl_tab/ctrl_shift_tab don't work on windows either
23:10 < zem> insert works?
23:11 < eljay> no, and neither does delete for some reason
23:11 < zem> run an update
23:11 < zem> delete seems to be fixed in the latest build (wasn't working earlier for me either)
23:12 < eljay> i'm on 811
23:12 < eljay> hmm more oddities with key detection, function keys have shift_alt_ prefix even when not holding any modifiers
23:13 < zem> might only be fixed in gtk
23:14 <@_why> you're right, looks like the gtk hotkeys are better off than the other platforms
23:14 < MrSkittle> Where the one night in Bangkok is my cgi-bin???
23:14 < zem> looking at gtk.c now to see if i can get insert working
23:15 < eljay> interested in playing around with the actual source myself, what would i need to compile it on windows?
23:19 <@_why> yakischloba: maybe try ./Shoes.app/Contents/MacOS/shoes -m
23:19 < zem> yeah, insert is a one line patch to gtk.c
23:19 < zem> can't see why shift_tab is failing
23:19 <@_why> i think the easiest way, eljay, is to go with the free ddk compiler
23:19 < yakischloba> _why: Same deal.
23:20 <@_why> http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/shoes/wiki/BuildingShoesWithWindowsDdk
23:20 < zem> ctrl_alt_del doesn't register either (:
23:20 < eljay> yeah i was reading that, i already have the normal windows sdk installed with compilers/headers etc, any differences?
23:21 <@_why> depends on the data of the sdk you're using
23:21 <@_why> sorry, date
23:21 <@_why> the ddk is roughly feb 2003 i think
23:22 < yakischloba> _why: It gives me the same error for any file I try to run.
23:22 < eljay> well it's the vista sdk, so likely to be quite a bit newer than that heh
23:24 < EmanuelC> _why: hi, just tried compiling on PPC and it's great!
23:25 <@_why> ah hey EmanuelC, it's great to see ya
23:25 < jballanc> Hmmm...I can't seem to figure out how to send messages to the console...
23:26 < jballanc> is it not just debug("This is debugging info")?
23:26 < eki_> I've been using:  info "hello from the console"
23:27 < yakischloba> _why: I'm on 10.4.11. Any ideas where I should start trying to figure it out?
23:28 <@_why> yeah i can't seem to break it, yakischloba, looks like we're going to have to dip into google
23:29 < EmanuelC> yakischloba, what's your prbl?
23:29 < yakischloba> EmanuelC: http://pastie.org/232343
23:31 < EmanuelC> yakischloba, sorry if it's a dumb question, have you tried "open Shoes.app" ?
23:33 < yakischloba> EmanuelC: same error.
23:33 < kuremmu> in r811 on windows xp, debug, warn, info, and error all send messages to the console, and all produce line number callouts as well.
23:33 < zem> theoretically, should shift, ctrl and alt register as keystrokes in their own right? or would it make the "did he press shift and then a, or did he press shift-a" code too hairy?
23:33 < kuremmu> you have to bring the console up with alt-/ to see them, it doesn't come up on its own
23:34 < MadX`> !
23:34 < DrErnie_> Okay, I finally isolated my tankspank crasher: http://pastie.org/232352
23:34 < MadX`> John Resig was almost here !
23:35 < DrErnie_> When I run this, I always get undefined method '[]' Shoes::Vector.Class
23:35 < kuremmu> incidentally, is it possible to make the search box autofocus when you click search? it would make the user feel smoother
23:35 < zem> append { JohnResig }
23:35 < DrErnie_> I could swear that monkeypatching Vector this way worked before. Any suggestions?
23:35 <@_why> does it work to do ::Vector?
23:36 <@_why> that's really odd
23:36 < DrErnie_> No, same problem with "  b = ::Vector[-500.0, 250.0] "
23:37 < MadX`> yeah ::Class exists
23:37 < Bluebie> Howdy Doodads
23:37 < zem> found the problem - shift_tab enters the keypress block, but fails both event.length > 0 and symbol_p
23:37 < MadX`> hi Bluebie 
23:37 < zem> so it's probably generating a unique code
23:38 < DrErnie_> Kelsey here at AppleShoes just came up with a nifty bouncy-ball screensaver
23:38 < Bluebie> Hiya ^_^
23:38 < Bluebie> do we have a new build since I went to sleep for intel video?
23:38 < MadX`> yep :D
23:38 < MadX`> r811
23:39 < JohnResig__> heyo :)
23:39 < Bluebie> John Resig! Hiya!
23:39 < MadX`> Hey John :)
23:39 < JohnResig__> Bluebie, MadX`: Hey!
23:40 < kuremmu> DrErnie_ on r811 windows xp the pastie version throws an undefied method '[]'  error for Shoes::Vector.Class
23:40 < Bluebie> now all we need is Bre Pettis and that woman from rocketbook and we'd have a lovely selection of celebrities
23:40 < MadX`> Bluebie, and the guys behind github
23:40 < Bluebie> oh right and the rails envy podcasters
23:41 < MadX`> well, we want the whole ruby community.
23:41 < MadX`> but that'd be a terrible mess if everybody talks
23:41 < cdcarter> hah
23:42 < kuremmu> Bluebie, #sneakers also came online for newbie aid and instruction if you are interested
23:42 < yakischloba> _why, EmanuelC : it should be noted that I can open it by launching "Shoes.app" from the Spotlight. However, navigating to Applications and trying to open it from there results in "You cannot open the application "Shoes" because it may be damaged or incomplete."
23:42 < Bluebie> been thinking more and more about using jQuery instead of Mootools, seems like it'd probably be a funner famework to code to... though the ART library mootools has been working on is pretty dang shiny
23:42 < DrErnie_> kuremmu: thanks, nice to know it isn't just me :-)
23:42 < Bluebie> anyone have a link to the latest build?
23:43 < zem> hah, gotit - gdk gets a GDK_ISO_Left_Tab on shift-tab
23:43 < yakischloba> _why, EmanuelC: I deleted and re-installed and it works fine. It looks like it was a problem with installing the new build over the previous.
23:44 < MadX`> Bluebie, did you check the wiki ?
23:44 < EmanuelC> yakischloba, good to hear that. :)
23:44 < Bluebie> nope?
23:44 < MadX`>  22:22 | <@_why> (video) http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r811-intel.dmg
23:44 < MadX`>  22:22 | <@_why> (novideo) http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r811-intel-novideo.dmg
23:44 < MadX`> or you can greb those
23:44 < MadX`> grab*
23:44 < zem> what's the preferred way to submit a patch?
23:45 < MadX`> maybe the ML ?
23:45 < Bluebie> Thanks MadX`!
23:45 < MadX`> or with a pull request on github
23:45 < MadX`> or with a mail
23:45 < zem> yeah, was wondering which
23:45 < MadX`> _why could answer you 
23:45 < Zonbi> Hello!
23:45 < Zonbi> This IS the shoesfest right?
23:45 < MadX`> Hi Zonbi 
23:45 < MadX`> Totally.
23:45 < Zonbi> Woot!
23:45 < zem> and that's what i'm asking for :)
23:46 < Zonbi> Are any of you familiar with the flash driven game called 'Dofus'?
23:46 < cdcarter> Shooesfest!
23:46 < shawn42> does this shoefest mean that we are going to get a new version of hackety hack?  *crosses fingers*
23:46 < DrErnie_> zem: for a small patch, just emailing it is fine
23:46 < MadX`> I played it a little bit
23:46 < MadX`> shawn42, not yet ;)
23:46 < JohnResig__> shawn42: heh, hope for one thing at a time ;)
23:46 < Zonbi> Trying to make a dofus-like system
23:46 < Zonbi> with the movement and hover details
23:46 < DrErnie_> shawn42: hackety hack is probably a ways off; unless someone here wants to do it as their project :-P
23:47 < ashbb> @Bluebie good morning. :)
23:47 < MadX`> shawn42, from the HH wiki : This project is currently on suspension while I work on Shoes. Expect a new release, based on Shoes, some time before 2008's end.
23:47 <@_why> oh okay zem had a question about patches
23:48 <@_why> either a pull request or an email to the list, sure
23:48 < Bluebie> it did say before 2007's end a couple of months ago, so I changed it.. it seemed worrysome for it to say that half way in to 2008
23:48 < Zonbi> Anyone on a Mac today?
23:48 < Bluebie> I'm on a Mac
23:48 < Zonbi> Nice, which editor do you prefer?
23:48 <@_why> both are considered sensational in their own right
23:48 < Zonbi> For ruby work?
23:49 < MadX`> Mac users use TextMate, most of them
23:49 < Zonbi> Meh
23:49 < Zonbi> TextMate = $$
23:49 < Zonbi> $$ = Something I don't have :'(
23:49 < Bluebie> I use Coda for most things
23:49 < cdcarter> but it is pretty
23:49 < shawn42> MadX`: thanks
23:49 < Bluebie> so, SubEthaEdit is my code editor of choice
23:49 < Zonbi> nice
23:49 < MadX`> I use Gedit on linux, and sometimes vim
23:49 < Zonbi> Been liking Smultron and the free version of Komodo
23:49 < Zonbi> So, what are you guys working on?
23:50 < Bluebie> Actually, I asked nicely and the macromates guy gave me free textmate license
23:50 < Zonbi> wow nice
23:50 < Bluebie> so... not necessarily!
23:50 < Zonbi> Quick question: move is used just how it sounds, right? somerect.move(x,y)?
23:50 < Bluebie> hmm, this new build fixes neither the crazy scrolling nor the weird thing trying to .call one of my symbols
23:51 < zem> *blink*
23:51 < zem> i sent a mail and it unsubbed me
23:51  * zem goes to recheck the address
23:51 < Bluebie> Zonbi: Yes indeedy
23:51 < Zonbi> Thanks
23:51 <@_why> blood
23:51 < Bluebie> blood?
23:52 < Zonbi> hrm
23:52 < Zonbi> :(
23:52 < AppleShoes> We're shutting down in Cupertino. Good luck everyone!  See you on the 25th.
23:52 < Zonbi> Time to rewrite all my code (That is, my 15 lines ) xD
23:52 <@_why> it's a euphemism for writing with a red pen on a red legal pad
23:52 < zem> does sending a mail to the list with an empty body trigger an unsub request?
23:52 < zem> that looks like a bug :)
23:53 <@_why> there goes dr. e
23:53 < Bluebie> ask("str") is still returning nil not doing anything much at all on Mac OS X
23:53 <@_why> cracking smart, that one
23:53 <@_why> i like the idea of apples as shoes, also
23:53 < Bluebie> zem: yep, that's how the mailing list works!
23:53 < cdcarter> yes it does zem
23:53 < cdcarter> thats the idea of the mailing list!
23:53 < zem> disconcerting (:
23:54 < zem> did the patch get through or should i resend?
23:54 <@_why> or send it straight to me, if you like
23:54 < MadX`> looks like it wasn't sent
23:54 <@_why> definitely a bug in the listserv
23:54 < Zonbi> Can I slot containing something like, say, an image or a rectangle be moved with some simple command?
23:54 <@_why> @slot.move(left, top)
23:54 < Zonbi> ooo
23:55 < MadX`> obvious.
23:55 < cdcarter> i asked this in the other room, but is there a way to set the coordinatey system to be based out of bottom left instead of top left?
23:55 < Zonbi> And one more question: I don't have to create a stack to have a slot? Only barely picked up shoes and started messing around with it two days ago :)
23:55 <@_why> very good quest, cdcarter
23:55 < cdcarter> it would be handy for mathy things
23:55 <@_why> you can use translate to alter the origin
23:56 <@_why> but i don't think it can be flipped, thinking... thinking...
23:56 < zem> can't get pull requests working either :( doesn't show up on github
23:56 < Bluebie> @_why: I did already request we have :bottom and :right styles that work just like in css..
23:56 < cdcarter> yea, my current method is to just to some numbers to get the number from top left, but if there can be a way to swap them, itd be great
23:56 < Bluebie> You emailed me back saying that was always your intention
23:56 < kuremmu> Zombi, Shoes.app is itself a flow, so you can just put stuff in without creating a(nother) stack or flow if you want
23:57 < EmanuelC> I have a bug: http://pastie.org/232368
23:58 < EmanuelC> the lower margin on the right is not being shown
23:58 < Zonbi> Kuremmu, the idea here is when you hover over a rect it displays some info above it. I need to be able to move the slot that the rect is in, I think, considering that hover/leave work for slots not the actual image or w/e...
23:59 < tef> I have a question from ground zero... or maybe from the basement.
--- Day changed Sat Jul 12 2008
00:00 < tef> I'm running under Linux (Ubuntu). Last night I grabbed shoes-0.r751-novideo.run and stuck it in ~/localbin (which is in my path)
00:00 <@_why> Bluebie: you totally did and i was nodding the whole time
00:00 < tef> I also made a soft-link to "shoes"
00:00 < tef> However, I have to specify the full path to the .rb I want to run with it. It won't automatically run something in the current directory when I type "shoes tryme.rb"
00:01 < tef> Even "shoes ./tryme.rb" won't work: I have to specify an absolute directory.
00:01 < tef> To run with relative directory would.. facilitate the dev process, I think. Any hints?
00:01 < Zonbi> I'm at a loss, sorry.
00:02 < Bluebie> tef: here's a hack... `pwd`/tryme.rb
00:02 < tef> Hah. That's true. I should just create an alias to do that.
00:02 < Bluebie> I agree though, relativeness would be lovelyness
00:02 < tef> Thanks!
00:03 < Zonbi> Hum
00:03 < Zonbi> So is it possible to create a 'slot' without a stack or flow, and move said slot around?
00:03 < Zonbi> with the stuff inside of it moving as well?
00:03 < zem> tef: i'm on ubuntu and it works for mee
00:04 < zem> i symlinked /usr/local/bin/shoes to /opt/shoes/dist/shoes and everything works
00:04 < tef> Hmmmm.. some subtlety of bash, no doubt.
00:04 < zem> did you install via rake?
00:05 < zem> that's possible
00:05 < zem> you use zsh?
00:05 < tef> No. I just downloaded the .run file and plopped it into my path.
00:05 < zem> oh
00:05 < zem> okay, ignore me then
00:05 < zem> different setup
00:06 < tef> I'm a Ruby novice, though I find the language terribly lovely. JRuby + swing is of interest to me, but shoes looks too good to pass up! (Thanks, _why)
00:08 < eki_> okay, another question, does anybody use the release event handler?  Is it know to work / not work?
00:10 < ChrisColon> I'm off to bed for now. Laters, have fun
00:10 < eljay> eki_: works fine here from my half arsed testing
00:11 <@_why> heya tef
00:11 <@_why> so if you're using a .run, the commandline is a little different
00:11 <@_why> ./shoes.run -- tryme.rb
00:14 < tef> Hmmm.. I set up that alias with the `pwd`. Works great. shoes -- tryme.rb gives a no such file or directory at line 215.
00:15 < eki_> this little release test isn't working for me: http://pastie.org/232376
00:15 < eki_> could someone confirm that I've either got it wrong or that it really is broken?
00:16 < Bluebie> well all the dialogs are working now on Mac OS X except for ask() so that's nice :)
00:16 < eljay> eki_: what does returning a string in release block even do, if anything?
00:17 < onigiri> eki_, it works for me
00:17 < EmanuelC> it gives me release!
00:17 < eki_> sorry, the second release block should also call: info "blah blah blah"
00:17 < eki_> I changed it and it still doesn't work here...
00:18 < eki_> what platform are you on EmanuelC?
00:18 < EmanuelC> eki_, which platform are you
00:18 < eki_> linux
00:18 < EmanuelC> hehe was going to ask the same
00:18 < EmanuelC> I'm on mac
00:18 < eljay> works for me, on windows
00:19 < EmanuelC> unfortunately tonight I don't have a linux box beside to try it on
00:19 < EmanuelC> so it's a linux prbl it seems
00:19 < eki_> okay, so probably a linux problem...
00:20 <@_why> okay, tef, i see, the .run needs a fix to its launcher script
00:20 < EmanuelC> for linux prbl I meant the linux build of shoes
00:20 < eki_> yes, of course : ))
00:20 < tef> Yeah... all these crazy people with different configurations.... :-) Thanks.
00:21 <@_why> you're totally right, eki_
00:21 <@_why> okay, good stuff, two more on the blood list
00:22 < tef> Moving from the basement to the ground floor (do you mind? does this fit with the purpose of the ShoesFest? Shall we call it a dance?)...
00:23 < tef> ... I have an edit_line and a button in a flow. Brilliant. I want the edit_line to be the width of the window minus the width of the button. Whatever width that button should choose. Make sense?
00:23 < Bluebie> you could say :width => 30 on the button then :width => -30 on the edit line :)
00:23 < EmanuelC> eki_, may you try the pastie I sent on linux? I wanted to see if it's mac dependant http://pastie.org/232368
00:24 < tef> Yeah, that's kinda' what I was thinking. I was hoping to allow the two to size against each other dynamically.
00:24 < Bluebie> nah
00:24 < tef> Allow the button to size according to its contents as expressed in the font used on the particular OS.
00:24 < paulv> when I hover over "box 1" or "box 2" in simple-menu.rb, I get a seg fault. "dist/lib/shoes.rb:216: wrong argument type false (expected Data) (TypeError)" and then a segfault.
00:24 < MadX`> _why, I read about this somewhere but, is there a way to center contents of a para ,
00:25 < Bluebie> para "stuff", :align => 'center'
00:25 < MadX`> paulv, this has been reported 
00:25 < tef> (Heh... maybe an overload of simple questions is what drives documentation!)
00:25 < paulv> ok
00:25 < MadX`> oh thanks bluebie
00:29 < kuremmu> trying to navigate to the textblock doc in the manual crashed the manual
00:29 <@_why> ohyeah thanks paulv, i hadn't written that one down
00:31 < tef> Oh, oh, manual. Not included in the .run? Available separately?
00:31 < kuremmu> Bluebie, _why, adding align=> 'center' to a para in windows xp r811 crashed the app
00:33 < eki_> EmmanuelC:  I see the box with the margin extends off the bottom of the app window (but not off the right side)
00:33 < eki_> is that what you were expecting?
00:33 < EmanuelC> eki_ yep, the bottom margin is cut off
00:34 <@_why> kuremmu: here on xp, just did an :align => 'center' and it was okay, what else is in the script?
00:35 <@_why> okay, kuremmu, with the manual bug had you used the "run this" link previous to hitting the textblock section?
00:36 < kuremmu> _why, i was experimenting with zonbi's rect question. the para was inside a hover block. the crash happened when i hovered over the rect
00:36 < zem> bug: shoes acts odd if image dimensions are not integers
00:36 < kuremmu> app works as expected without the center
00:37 < zem> not sure what it's doing exactly, it doesn't display the image but if the native image is larger than the window a scrollbar appears and doesn't let you drag it down
00:37 < kuremmu> incidentally, do only text elements merit rendering the background? i notice that with just the rect in a stack, no background,
00:38 <@_why> zem: if you use floats, they'll act like percentages
00:38 <@_why> so 1.0 is 100%, 0.5 is half
00:38 < kuremmu> but the para message gives just enough background to cover it, regardless of position relative to the rect
00:38 < zem> oh
00:38 < zem> doh
00:38 < zem> need to rtfm more carefully then :)
00:39 <@_why> i kind of regret that syntax choice actually, it bites me quite a bit
00:39 < MadX`> Oh, I've spotted weird behaviour, but maybe my code is faulty
00:39 < MadX`> I'll try to write a samble
00:39 < kuremmu> _why re manual bug, no, i had not used run this, but i had done other searches
00:39 < zem> yeah
00:39 < zem> it's ugly
00:40 < zem> imaginary numbers should be relative scales :)
00:41 < cdcarter> oh no
00:44 < MadX`> _why, http://pastie.org/232398
00:45 < MadX`> I don't know if this is to be considered as a bug or not, but the question is there.
00:46 <@_why> yeah you'll need to give them different urls
00:46 < kuremmu> _why, i moved the align => 'center' to another para in a different stack and got an undefined method error for align
00:46 < MadX`> ok
00:47 < Bluebie> kuremmu: it's :align, not just 'align'
00:47 < Bluebie> The : makes it a symbol, which is a bit like a string
00:48 < kuremmu> ah, aged eyes didn't see the colon
00:50 < MrSkittle> awww... my dog is dreaming
00:50 < kuremmu> the colon does the trick. works in or out of hover now.
00:51 < kuremmu> thanks, Bluebie
00:53 <@_why> still, i wonder what was crashing it
00:53 < Bluebie> ^_^
00:57 < zem> does http://pastie.org/232406 seem like a reasonable solution to bug shoes-12, or is imagesize(path) expensive enough that there should be an extra if block enclosing the whole thing?
00:59 <@_why> oh hey look it's john resig
00:59 <@_why> he thinks he can have more underscores than me
00:59 < JohnResig__> _why: heya! :)
00:59 < JohnResig__> haha
00:59 <@_why> you got a lotta nerve you know
00:59 < Bluebie> that seems a nifty way to do it zem
00:59 < JohnResig__> haha, oh yeah?
00:59 <@_why> so you're all into shoes now i guess
01:00 < JohnResig__> I'm checking it out - I really dig its simplicity
01:00 <@_why> i don't think that's a very wise idea
01:00 < Bluebie> yeah, everyone knows shoes now
01:00 < MadX`> yeah
01:00 < MadX`> you'll have to write a new book why
01:00 <@_why> where you been bluebie? everything shoes touches turns to ash
01:01 < Bluebie> but one day it wont!
01:01  * MrSkittle puts shoes on a stick and goes around touching people with it
01:01 <@_why> sure maybe one day it'll turn ashes into shoes, wouldn't that be summin
01:01 < zem> it's just that hot :)
01:02 <@_why> well, it's good to have you, john, you're a real maccoy, for sure
01:02 < cdcarter> i dont suppose anybody has hooked shoes up to textmate so I can just cmd-R yet?
01:02 <@_why> i'm just saying be careful
01:02 <@_why> yes, shoes has simplicity
01:03 < JohnResig__> _why: :) always been a big fan of your work - I'll watch my toes
01:03 <@_why> but also lotsa crashiness
01:03 < Bluebie> We all need to help pitch in and buy _why some antidepressants so he doesn't give up!
01:04 <@_why> it ain't depression to be pleased as punch in a very dark dreadful sitchuation
01:04 < kuremmu> crashiness or not, i haven't had this much fun whanging on a computer since the old Atari ST game writing days.  Shoes ftw
01:04 < Bluebie> hehe
01:06 < ashbb> I guess Shoes will be a killer app as like as Rails. Because we newbie can make own app easily.
01:06 < Bluebie> I imagine shoes will be a modern day Visual Basic
01:06 < ashbb> yes.
01:07 < EmanuelC> Bluebie, even better: is smth you can use on basically all the OSs outside there
01:07  * Bluebie dances around with iphone saber making zoooming and zapping noises
01:07 < ashbb> I love Ruby and Shoes. :)
01:07 < Bluebie> but basically all OS's were windows back in visual basic's hayday, so my point stands
01:08 <@_why> ashbb you did the uh one tutorial for making an mp3 player right?
01:08 < zem> linux was around back then too :)
01:08 < zem> granted, it was slackware and came on two floppies, but still
01:08 < ashbb> haha yes. so tiny.
01:08 < EmanuelC> hehehe Bluebie fair enough :)
01:08 < Bluebie> yeah but who was using it beside giant beards with men attached to them?
01:08 < zem> college kids (:
01:08 <@_why> well i really appreciated that, ashbb, i really did
01:08 < zem> we had fun playing with it
01:09 < kuremmu> giant beards? alas, i resemble that remark
01:09 < zem> tcl/tk were having their moment in the sun around then too, iirc
01:09 < kuremmu> and gray to boot
01:09 < vgoff> That resembled me until yesterday.. shaved mine off..
01:09 < Bluebie> my condolences kuremmu
01:09 < zem> my eyeballs probably still have some of the tk bloodstains :)
01:10 < ashbb> Oh, thanks!! I'm going to write more. :)
01:10 < vgoff> Manish 'shoed' my code_wrapper program, too, ashbb
01:11 < eljay> If you need any specific tutorials/documentation writing I'm willing to help out
01:11 < eljay> am I weird for enjoying documentation writing?
01:11 < Bluebie> Nope!
01:11 < ashbb> Hi vgoff! at last i can talk with you. :)
01:12 < Bluebie> Doccing is fun if you have enough creative freedom to show your insanity
01:12 <@_why> sorta, eljay, it's just rigorous going through every little cranny
01:12 < tef> _why himself must enjoy. Those texts must take aeons to produce!
01:12 < EmanuelC> _why, everyone need to go now, sorry...catch up later, will you all be here later on?
01:12 < EmanuelC> see ya
01:12 <@_why> yeah, way to go stopping by EmanuelC
01:13 < vgoff> Yes...
01:13 < vgoff> I am in the class room as well.
01:13 <@_why> you've been great to have around on the shoes list
01:13 < vgoff> IRC classroom
01:14 < eljay> creativity is not my problem, imagination is (if that makes any sense)
01:14 < tef> Back to the ground floor. How to "exit" from shoes programatically, please? I see it on the family photo but it appears I'm not using it correctly.
01:14 < EmanuelC> thanks _why,see you soon!
01:15 < Bluebie> eljay: you boggle my mind
01:15 < kuremmu> button "done" { exit } works for me
01:15 < eljay> hehe, good to know
01:15 < tamalw> kuremmu: what platform are you on?
01:16 < kuremmu> windows xp, r811
01:16 < tamalw> or tef I should ask, what platform are you on
01:16 < tamalw> :S
01:16 < tef> Hmmmm... "fn = ask_open_file(); exit if fn.equals? nil" leaves up the shoes window. (Linux/Ubuntu)
01:16 < Bluebie> I think 'close' makes more sense incase other apps are open in shoes, it'll only close the window and not Shoes itself
01:16 < eljay> i see creativity more as sort of brainstorming around an existing idea, and imagination as coming up with the original idea to start with, this is making a lot more sense in my head
01:16 < Bluebie> oh pahlease
01:17 < eljay> my mind doesn't make sense
01:17 < Bluebie> organic life can never create new things out of nothing in their head... there is only the evergoing combination of what already exists in to the new
01:17 < Bluebie> evolution tries that 'inventing new things' and that's why evolution is so slow and often cancerous
01:17 < tamalw> tef: fn = ask_open_file(); exit if fn.nil?
01:18 < tef> Tried it. Will try again.
01:18 < eljay> now you are boggling my mind Bluebie :)
01:18 < tamalw> works for me on OS X
01:18 < eljay> much boggling is being had here
01:18 < tef> Actually, just for testing, I'm at "fn = ask_open_file(); exit" !
01:18 < kuremmu> an unboggled mind is a terrible thing to not boggle
01:18 < Bluebie> embrace that all creativity is plagerism of your enviroment, and be happy ^_^
01:20 < tef> Maybe it's related to the fact I'm using the .run?
01:20 < yakischloba> What would be my best bet for a 'grid' type of element? TextBlocks in bordered stacks/flows laid out in a grid fashion?
01:22 < MrSkittle> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_the_lucky_stiff
01:22 < MrSkittle> that's a funny picture :D
01:22 < MrSkittle> out of date article though :/
01:23 < MadX`> yakischloba, yeah, some paras inside stacks inside a flow should be great
01:23 < tamalw> I can crash shoes (r811, osx) on cue if I run "Shoes.app { fn = ask_open_file(); close if fn.nil? }", click Cancel, then wait about 5 seconds
01:24 < eljay> he looks strangely like Jack Black in that pic ^_^
01:24 < tamalw> Does it do the same for other folks>?
01:24 < yakischloba> MadX`: sweet thanks. I guess I should have read more before asking but is there any interest in incorporating peoples add-on stuff like that?
01:24 < MrSkittle> eljay: yeah, he does :D
01:25 < tef> Doesn't happen for me. But I get a Gtk error. And it doesn't exit the program flow (a subsequent command is executed).
01:25 < Bluebie> I never noticed jack black resemblence
01:25 < Bluebie> but he DOES also play music..
01:25 < Bluebie> maybe _why IS jack black
01:25 < tef> (r751.run on Linux)
01:26 < cdcarter> BLuebie, more than just maybe
01:26 < eljay> an interesting theory Bluebie
01:26 < MrSkittle> That would be shocking and amazing...
01:26 < MadX`> Bluebie, seriously, you never noticed ?!
01:26 < MrSkittle> and it would explain a lot
01:26 < Bluebie> I also suspect _why is a teacher and also is Elliot Cable
01:26 < Bluebie> nope, never
01:26 < MrSkittle> like how weird Jack Black is :P
01:26 < Bluebie> not in all the hours spent obsessively watching him at railsconf
01:26 < MadX`> that the first thing that came to my mind when I saw that picture
01:27 < Bluebie> gosh *sigh* I guess I just don't watch enough TV and stupid movies
01:27 < Bluebie> how misfortunate I am
01:28 < kuremmu> i did a quick experiment with paras inside flows inside stacks to make a grid, and crashed not only shoes, but drwatson (windows useless debug tool)
01:28 < cdcarter> drwatson deserves to crash
01:29 < MrSkittle> Ya know, it would also explain how _why has the money to do all this
01:29 < yakischloba> hmm.
01:29 < kuremmu> cdcarter i agree completely
01:29 < MrSkittle> Also why Jack Black hasn't been doing much lately
01:30 < Bluebie> so Jack Black devoted four years of his life to hackety hack and is one year in to that deal?
01:30 < Bluebie> I don't know... this all seems quite flimsy
01:30 < Bluebie> wouldn't _why rock more in his music if _why was jack black?
01:30 < Bluebie> like with the guitar and stuff
01:30 < cdcarter> so we dont find out
01:30 < Bluebie> instead it's all laser synths and weird samples
01:30 < MrSkittle> Hmm..
01:30 < MrSkittle> http://www.aolcdn.com/red_galleries/jack-black-400a052307.jpg
01:30 < MrSkittle> Jack Black is too fat though
01:31 < cdcarter> we should check all of jack blacks music against _whys
01:31 < Bluebie> and beardy!
01:31 < MrSkittle> Bluebie: he shaved
01:31 < cdcarter> see is "_why" is just the testing ground for "Jack Black"
01:31 < MrSkittle> that was back when Jack Black was doing Nacho Libre
01:32 < Bluebie> I don't know, _why's pretty cool, but is he really School of Rock cool?
01:32 < eljay> maybe some of tenacious d's music contains hidden messages in ruby
01:32 < MrSkittle> Haha!
01:32 < MrSkittle> http://www.kottke.org/plus/celeb-mii/images/jack-black.jpg
01:32 < Bluebie>