16:17 < hiffy> there, logging is turned on. I'll always have a copy of this channel, for as long as the datacentre this vm is up
16:18 < hiffy> *that hosts this vm
16:18 < ejmiller> hiffy: thanks :-)
16:22 < hiffy> ejmiller: np :).
16:37 < Soryu> hola
16:38 < tar_> halo
16:39 <@_why> okay, sorry for the delay, i shall return in a bit
16:39 < tar_> :)
16:46 < dantekgeek> ashbb: twitter?
16:47 < ashbb> Hi, I'm just woke up. :-P
16:47 < dantekgeek> what is this place
16:48 < dantekgeek> _why keeps talking about shoes, and then points people here
16:50 < ejmiller> Karate calls to me, see you'll later
16:53 < gplumbly> http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/shoes/
16:53 < dantekgeek> aha
16:53 < dantekgeek> cool stuff
16:53 < gplumbly> im just here in the hope some of the magic might rub off on me
16:54 < dantekgeek> somehow I doubt its a good idea to rub shoes all over yourself
17:16 < yakischloba> http://pastie.org/232343
17:17 < yakischloba> Whats going on here?
17:17 < kuremmu> for those confused, this is the newbie help/instruction channel for Shoes, _why's wonderful Ruby UI tool.
17:18 < kuremmu> #shoes is the development/bug report/project channel, where Shoes Day 1 is now underway.
17:33 <@_why> well, so, let's see who we gots
17:34 <@_why> everybody here has the latest build for their platform?
17:35 < gplumbly> i believe i do
17:36 <@_why> hullo gplumbly
17:36 <@_why> what os are ya on?
17:36 < gplumbly> os x
17:36 < gplumbly> tiger intel
17:37 <@_why> your first time running shoes?
17:37 < gplumbly> why yes :)
17:37 <@_why> so, on osx, you can just copy Shoes into /Applications and click on the icon to start it up
17:38 < gplumbly> cool
17:38 <@_why> or, if you'd rather use it from the commandline, you can run: /Applications/Shoes.app/Contents/MacOS/shoes
17:38 <@_why> or, like if you have a script.rb you want to run:
17:39 <@_why> it's /Applications/Shoes.app/Contents/MacOS/shoes script.rb
17:39 <@_why> i should probably get that shortened to /Applications/Shoes.app/shoes
17:40 <@_why> okay, so when you started Shoes, it asked you to pick a file to run
17:40 <@_why> did you find any of the samples to run?
17:40 < gplumbly> yes
17:41 < gplumbly> i tried a couple from the-shoebox
17:41 < gplumbly> with varying degrees of success
17:42 <@_why> yeah, definitely, some things are still shaky
17:42 <@_why> so in the "Help" menu there's a "Manual" item, did you happen to check that out?
17:42 < gplumbly> no will do
17:43 < gplumbly> im probably being an ntard but dont see a help menu
17:43 <@_why> we're just going to keep that open while we're working on this
17:43 <@_why> you're not being an ntard at all
17:44 < cdcarter> is it possible to have shoes use x/y from bottom left instead of top left?
17:44 <@_why> is there even a "Shoes" menu at the top
17:44 < gplumbly> yes have a shoes menu
17:44 <@_why> just "Shoes" or is there "Shoes" "Windows" and "Help"?
17:45 < gplumbly> just shoes
17:45 <@_why> try this one: http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/dist/shoes-0.r811-intel.dmg
17:45 < gplumbly> cool thanks
17:46 <@_why> hopefully this one will work better
17:47 < gplumbly> bit of a weirdness happening, will be right back
17:53 < gplumbly> thanks, that one gave me window and help with manual
17:57 <@_why> ah good good
17:58 <@_why> so there are two things that get used more than anything else in shoes
17:58 <@_why> and those are `stacks` and `flows`
17:58 < cdcarter> heh
17:58 <@_why> let's go to the search page in the manual
17:59 < gplumbly> hokey dokey
18:01 <@_why> okay, do a search for "stack"
18:01 <@_why> a bunch of stuff comes up, the top three or four are especially useful
18:01 < gplumbly> gotcha
18:01 <@_why> the dark "Slots" one is a good introduction
18:01 <@_why> "Slots" section headers
18:02 <@_why> it's actually the same thing as just clicking "Slots" on the left-hand side
18:02 < gplumbly> wakarimashta
18:03 <@_why> i need to get some diagrams on this page
18:03 <@_why> so a good example of a stack is the set of links on the left side of the manual
18:04 <@_why> those links are inside a stack
18:04 <@_why> they stack vertically
18:04 <@_why> there's also a flow on this page
18:05 <@_why> you see how the links on the left take up oh like 20% of the page and the other 80% is the explanation
18:05 < gplumbly> i feel super privileged, wish i could ask some sensible questions
18:05 <@_why> no worries at all, this channel is being logged so some of these other very busy guys can read over it later
18:06 <@_why> i'm a very non-busy person who lives for stuff like this, so it's great
18:06 < gplumbly> i know, im a twitter follower :)
18:06 <@_why> so it's like 20% on the left and 80% on the right
18:07 <@_why> the flow is wrapped around those two sides
18:07 <@_why> a flow stacks them horizontally
18:08 <@_why> however, the reason it's called a flow is because it'll wrap to the next line once it hits the scrollbar
18:08 <@_why> a good page to check out is here: http://hackety.org/press/nks-15.html
18:08 < Bluebie> well, not really
18:09 < Bluebie> but the end of the place it exists in, it ignores the scroll bar
18:09 < Bluebie> or are flow's special?
18:09 <@_why> no, you're right, the right side of the window i guess would be more accurate
18:10 <@_why> so, on that page, the left page, the diagrams kind of show how two stacks act inside a flow
18:12 <@_why> let's do a real basic shoes prog then
18:13 <@_why> you can open up a blank app.rb file
18:13 < gplumbly> k
18:13 <@_why> and just put in it: Sneakers
18:14 <@_why> save it and open it from shoes
18:14 <@_why> you can just drag and drop the file on to the shoes icon
18:15 < gplumbly> just Sneakers....bunch of errors in a console
18:15 <@_why> great, exactly
18:15 <@_why> so the last one should read "uninitialized constant Shoes::Sneakers"
18:16 < gplumbly> yes
18:16 <@_why> this is the error console and it'll pop up if you have a syntax error or the app won't run
18:16 <@_why> however, once the program's started, it'll leave you alone
18:17 <@_why> so, if your program starts throwing errors after it's started you'll want to go to the "Help" menu to pull it up again
18:18 <@_why> okay, let's get a window going
18:18 <@_why> Shoes.app do
18:18 <@_why>   stack do
18:18 <@_why>     subtitle "Shoes Day"
18:18 <@_why>     para "July 11th"
18:18 <@_why>   end
18:18 <@_why> end
18:18 <@_why> http://pastie.org/232379
18:19 < gplumbly> Shoes Day, for another 40 mins here in London at least
18:21 < Bluebie> gplumbly: it continues till the next day at mid day gmt
18:22 < gplumbly> super
18:23 <@_why> yeah so this program is really worthless, but ah well
18:24 <@_why> shoes kind of works like html inside the `Shoes.app` block
18:24 <@_why> stack do...end is like <div></div> in a way
18:24 < gplumbly> k
18:25 <@_why> except you could use a loop in there: 10.times { subtitle "Shoes Day" }
18:25 <@_why> or you could display the time dynamically: para Time.now
18:27 <@_why> the three methods in there `stack`, `subtitle` and `para` all can be passed styles, sort of like css on the web
18:28 < gplumbly> so how would i make my July 11th a different style
18:29 <@_why> Shoes.app do
18:29 <@_why>   background "#fff"
18:29 <@_why>   stack :margin => 10 do
18:29 <@_why>     2.times do
18:29 <@_why>       subtitle "Shoes Day", :size => 12, :weight => 'bold'
18:29 <@_why>     end
18:29 <@_why>     para Time.now, :size => 10
18:29 <@_why>   end
18:29 <@_why> end
18:29 <@_why> http://pastie.org/232379
18:30 < gplumbly> thnks
18:31 <@_why> so the styles are the stuff like `:margin` and `:size` and so on
18:31 < proppy> oy
18:32 <@_why> as for the `background` method, you can pull that up by hitting the search in the manual again
18:32 <@_why> hullo proppy
18:40 < gplumbly> what is a .shy
18:41 <@_why> it's like a zip or tarball of shoes stuff
18:41 <@_why> it's set up to extract and then run a script inside the shy
18:42 < kuremmu> _why, is a .shy effectively sandboxed?
18:43 <@_why> we're moving from the shy builder to the packager right now
18:44 <@_why> you mean like sandboxed in its own ruby interp? or sandboxed on the filesystem?
18:45 <@_why> as far as a ruby sandbox, it's not yet sandboxed in the builds you guys are using, because the sandbox builds are just too crashy
18:45 < Bluebie> one of the best aspects of shoes is that ruby isn't sandboxed for the filesystem and dangerous (Fun!) system stuff like some other similar things..
18:46 < cdcarter> i love fun things
18:47 <@_why> kxxxx
18:47 <@_why> sorry, my irc client was barfing a bit
18:49 <@_why> right so the sandboxed builds are crashy at present, so i decided to focus on just making shoes scripts work nicely and then get to that
18:50 <@_why> this lady is out on her porch listening to red red wine again
18:50 < Bluebie> which means the kind of sandboxing shoes is going to have is just so that two shoes apps can run at the same time without interfering with each other, because they'll each exist in their own ruby universe with their own constants and global variables and stuff
18:51 <@_why> and for security as well
18:51 < Bluebie> security?
18:51 < Bluebie> security against what?
18:51 <@_why> if the shoes app goes to hit the filesystem or ask for sockets, you'll have to grant perms
18:51 <@_why> if you're running off the web, that is
18:51 <@_why> for installed apps, no need
18:51 < Bluebie> if you get two mirrors and some cardboard you could make a periscope to spy on her without her being able to see your funky _why hairdo staring back
18:52 < Bluebie> running off the web...?
18:52 < Bluebie> we talking plugin, shoes:// uri that opens shoes...?
18:52 <@_why> shoes http://bloob.eee/horses/junk.rb
18:53 < Bluebie> it should only have to ask to open server sockets.. regular sockets are useful for things such as loading http off of a web server and not all that dangerous
18:53 < Bluebie> or you could whitelist a few specific ports..
18:55 <@_why> i think this lady just listens to the tape and then flips it over and then flips it over and then keeps flipping it over
18:55 < cdcarter> hahah
18:56 <@_why> she's reading a magazine and scowling
18:56 < Bluebie> doesn't net/http just use sockets anyway?
18:56 <@_why> i would not want to be her cat
18:56 < ashbb> _why: http://bloob.eee/horses/junk.rb is right URL? not found....   Example?
18:56 < cdcarter> it was just an example
18:56 <@_why> yeah but using sockets outside the sandboxed script would be allowed
18:57 < ashbb> okay. thanks. ;-)
18:57 < Bluebie> web scripts should also be able to ask to be installed
18:57 < Bluebie> like open a save dialog
19:15 < paulv> is there a way to make the console open automatically?
19:17 <@_why> you mean if an error happens?
19:18 < paulv> no, i mean, open it when the app starts. so I can print stuff to it w/o having to open it by hand
19:18 < paulv> but your idea is good too.
19:21 < gplumbly> _why thanks very much. need sleep now
21:03 < tar_> beh, I got busy. What did I miss? :)
21:05 < tar_> At least it was because I was busy teaching high-schoolers HTML, so karma-wise I'm even
21:06 < Bluebie> hehe :)
22:08 < elkmoose> I am having trouble with images in mac os x
22:08 < elkmoose> they just dont seem to be findable...
22:08 < elkmoose> even when in the same directory
22:10 < ashbb> I think to need to define ful path.
22:10 < elkmoose> i was using: image "shoes-icon.png"
22:11 < elkmoose> when both the script and image are in the same directory
22:12 < ashbb> I don't know about the reason. but maybe it works to define fulpath
22:12 < ashbb> Sorry, but try.
22:12 < Bluebie> you shouldn't have that problem, I don't in my walking pony
22:12 < Bluebie> it uses relative paths
22:13 < rick_2047> me too
22:13 < elkmoose> hmm
22:13 < rick_2047> but i am on linux and it can be platform dependent
22:13 < rick_2047> Bluebie, on which osx are u
22:13 < Bluebie> mac
22:13 < rick_2047> Bluebie, i asked the osx verson
22:14 < Bluebie> leopard
22:14 < elkmoose> i am in tiger
22:14 < rick_2047> so it can be the problem of tiger
22:14 < rick_2047> ask someone on tiger
22:16 < elkmoose> the funny thing is that images in a .shy work fine
22:17 < rick_2047> thats strange
22:17 < Bluebie> elkmoose: are you launching shoes at the command line?
22:17 < elkmoose> Bluebie: nope
22:17 < elkmoose> as a normal osx app
22:17 < Bluebie> :/
22:18 < Bluebie> using the open window in shoes or using Open With > Shoes in finder?
22:18 < rick_2047> try looking at the console alt+/
22:18 < rick_2047> it can show some errors
22:18 < elkmoose> the open window in shoes
22:20 < Bluebie> no, try command + /
22:20 < Bluebie> it's command on mac
22:20 < rick_2047> o
02:42 < gdp> samples/simple-sphere.rb gives errors in graphical window
02:42 < gdp> wrong number of arguments(3 for 2)
02:43 < gdp> in 'image' 2, in 'instance_eval 2
02:44 < gdp> in 'image' 2, in 'instance_eval 0
02:44 < gdp> in 'image' 2, in 'instance_eval 0
02:46 < gdp> using shoes-0.r811
02:46 < Bluebie> aww
03:40 < gdp> what can be wrong with
03:40 < gdp> Shoes.app :width => 500, :height => 500, :resizable => false do   image 400, 470, :top => 30, :left => 50 do   end end
03:41 < gdp> with proper line breaks
03:44 < Bluebie> whats this image 400, 470?
03:44 < Bluebie> is that the right syntax for an imageblock?
03:47 < gdp> image 400, 470, :top => 30, :left => 50 do
03:47 < gdp> end
03:52 < gdp> how to know the right syntax for image
03:52 < Bluebie> the manual?
03:53 < gdp> shoes -m, gives too little
03:54 < Bluebie> aww
03:57 < ashbb> http://hackety.org/2008/05/22/theImageBlockAtTheBottomOfShoes.html
03:59 < gdp> ashbb: I will look at it, thanks
04:01 < ashbb> Hope it helps. :)
04:03  * Cicloid going to sleep a little
04:04 < Bluebie> nini Cicloid
04:12 < ashbb> night Cicloid. see you.
04:50 < ashbb> Cheers!
10:28 < elkmoose> help
10:29 < elkmoose> im having no luck with the manual on mac osx
10:29 < Bluebie> what's happening with it?
10:29 < elkmoose> ./shoes -m just brings up a badly formatted section of text
10:29 < Bluebie> it works fine for me on intel leopard
10:29 < elkmoose> and i cant call it from within an app
10:29 < elkmoose> with the command + ?
10:29 < Bluebie> just open shoes without -m and open it from the menu o_o
10:30 < Bluebie> no, with clicking Help then Manual
10:30 < elkmoose> no go
10:30 < elkmoose> i dont have help
10:30 < elkmoose> in the menu
10:30 < elkmoose> just "shoes"
10:30 < Bluebie> open Shoes.app from finder, not from the terminal
10:30 < elkmoose> i have done that
10:30 < Bluebie> :/
10:30 < elkmoose> i know
10:30 < Bluebie> and you're using the recent shoes?
10:30 < elkmoose> :)
10:30 < elkmoose> yup
10:31 < elkmoose> well, the second most recent
10:31 < Bluebie> tried reinstalling?
10:31 < elkmoose> the most recent mac package doesnt even open
10:31 < elkmoose> yeah, but i will give it another go
10:31 < elkmoose> with the most recent again
10:31 < elkmoose> that is, 811
10:31 < elkmoose> r811
10:31 < Bluebie> yeah
10:32 < Bluebie> make sure you're using the intel one on intel mac or ppc one on power pc mac
10:35 < elkmoose> well well.
10:35 < Bluebie> well?
10:35 < elkmoose> the build i downloaded last night that *didnt* work
10:35 < elkmoose> is working now
10:35 < elkmoose> :)
10:35 < elkmoose> then again, it was about 4am when i tried to update
10:35 < elkmoose> i blame it on that
10:36 < Bluebie> hooray!
10:36 < elkmoose> thanks
10:38 < elkmoose> this version is MUCH better!
10:38 < elkmoose> i am an idiot!
10:44 < Bluebie> :)