14:08 < ashbb> MadX: Hi! ShoesFest 2nd is starting?
14:08 < Bluebie> ashbb: ^_^
14:08 < Bluebie> technically started, _why is running late, which he said on the mailing list
14:10 < ashbb> Oh, yeah. Thx. I was out alday. I'm going to check my inbox form now.
14:11 < brainopia> how to change a fill color of existing rectangle?
14:12 < Bluebie> I don't know that you can..
14:12 < Bluebie> I think it's something yet to be added
14:12 < MadX`> brainopia: @rect.style(:fill, color) maybe
14:13 < brainopia> yeah, it's not working =(
14:13 < eki_> as of last shoesfest, it wasn't possible to change the color of a shape (fill or stroke)
14:13 < MadX`> ok, sorry
14:13 < MadX`> maybe you could remove & redraw it ,
14:14 < MadX`> ?
14:14 < eki_> you have to redraw it
14:15 < MadX`> I'll be back later, I wish you all a great ShoesFest start :D
14:16 < brainopia> if i draw on top of existing rectangle a new rectangle, will old rectangle still spend system resources?
14:17 < eki_> that I don't know, I would guess at least a little, since it could be moved out from under the new shape?
14:19 < brainopia> eki_: so it will probably leak if i will draw a new rectangles on top of old ones very often?
14:23 < eki_> I don't know... I would assume that if it does, it would be fixed so that it doesn't...
14:23 < eki_> at least within a clear block, which is, I think, where you should be doing the redrawing...
14:24 < eki_> I really haven't looked into what shoes does in that case
14:26 < ashbb> Shoes.app do @r = rect 0, 0, 10, 10; clear {@r.replace rect 100, 100, 10, 10} end
14:27 < ashbb> I think @r is same object. So old rect has not system resources.
14:31 < ashbb> I leave the table a little. I'll be back soon. Enjoy ShoesFest!
14:34 < brainopia> http://gist.github.com/2431 can you take a look at the second sample
14:35 < brainopia> is it expected behavior of shoes or does it need to be fixed?
14:35 < brainopia> ashbb: thx for advise
14:40 < brainopia> so what do you think about http://gist.github.com/2431?
14:40 < optikalmouse> I just realized that gist is like pastebin heh
14:42 < brainopia> optikalmouse: ;)
14:57 < ashbb> brainopia: I think it is expected behavior. ;-)
14:58 < brainopia> ashbb: thx again =)
14:58 < ashbb> What do you expect?
14:58 < brainopia> ashbb: just a change of flow background, but rectangle remains untouched
14:59 < brainopia> ashbb: it's from one point of view very logical
14:59 < brainopia> ashbb: but from another view, it's logical that background method repaint on top
15:00 < Bluebie> intuition > logic
15:00 < Bluebie> i guess backgrounds always go in to the back of the stack
15:00 < Bluebie> if you want on top, rect
15:01 < brainopia> Bluebie: but backround repaints on top already without any need to use rect
15:01 < brainopia> Bluebie: that's what was strange for me at first =)
15:01 < ChrisColon> I don't know how Shoes implements this but maybe it's like this to save resources. Every stack has one drawing surface, so a background paints over everything in this stack. If it should draw in the background every time, you'd need a second drawing surface, if this is how Shoes does it, I have no clue
15:01 < Bluebie> ooh
15:02 < Bluebie> no ChrisColon, a background is an object
15:02 < Bluebie> in an array
15:02 < Bluebie> just like buttons and stuff
15:02 < Bluebie> it just so happens to paint the whole area while consuming none of the space, is all
15:03 < ashbb> Yes, Bluebie. But every stack/flow is independent.
15:03 < Bluebie> indeededly ^_^
15:03 < ChrisColon> Bluebie: I meant the actual implementation with the GUI toolkits (GTK, Cocoa, whatever windows uses) not the Ruby code
15:03 < Bluebie> um
15:04 < ChrisColon> But like I said, I have no idea. I never took a look at the Shoes source :)
15:06 < brainopia> i guess _why will be a judge at this matter :P
15:06 < Bluebie> indubitably
15:23 < ashbb> brainopia: About your first question. Run this code: http://pastie.org/241004
15:23 < ashbb> Chang color when mouse hover/leave....
15:26 < brainopia> ashbb: hm, it looks like it leak - but i'll test it more thoroughly now
15:29 < ashbb> Oh, Doesn't it work well?  It works well on my WindowXP and Shoes-0.r811
15:29 < ashbb> What do you use? Linux box or Mac?
15:44 < brainopia> ashbb: i was wrong, it doesn't leak
15:45 < ashbb> Does it work well?
15:47 < brainopia> ashbb: yeah, i just watched memory usage and it seemed to me that it increases limit, but as i check with http://pastie.org/241020 it's not
15:47 < brainopia> oops, not this code =)
15:48 < brainopia> but in any case it's ok =)
16:42 < ashbb> Sorry, I'm back now.
16:42 < ashbb> Hi anteaya!
16:43 < ashbb> Hi Kuremmu!
16:43 < kuremmu> howdy, ashbb
16:45 < ejmiller> Has anyone tried nesting animations?
16:46 < ashbb> Oh,....no. :-P
16:46 < ashbb> Do you have any example code?
16:47 < optikalmouse> how does shoes determine the default size for a window?
16:47 < optikalmouse> http://hackety.org/press/nks-13.html like in the Paragraph examples with breadsticks, it seems to wrap at 32 characters/columns
16:47 < anteaya> hey ashbb
16:48 < ejmiller> I tried wrapping the widget from Bluebie's epony example last week in an animation but didn't get far
16:48 < anteaya> ashbb: i am lurking but probably won't be that active today, I am working toward a deadline and I have a two thick interviews to transcribe for the article.  Hope all goes well.
16:48 < ashbb> brainopia: Do you expect http://pastie.org/241020 's behavior like the following?
16:49 < optikalmouse> oh jeez, I'm an idiot.
16:49 < optikalmouse> I just tried that example and it doesn't automatically resize the window
16:50 < ashbb> brainopia: See this: http://pastie.org/241059
16:51 < ashbb> anteaya: Sounds great! Okay. If you have time, sometimes join here. :)
16:52 < anteaya> ashbb: thanks for understanding and I will  :D
16:52 < ashbb> :)
16:53 < ejmiller> The code I have uses a bunch of image files - I'll try to put together a simple stand alone nested animation sample at lunch and ask for help then
16:57 < ashbb> ejmiller: Thx. I'm waiting your sample. Have a good lunch. :)
16:58 < eki_> it looks to me like oval is not drawing correctly on Linux (and maybe elsewhere?)... radius doesn't seem right... if I draw an oval inside a rect, where the radius is half the width of the rect, it doesn't come close to filling the rect...
16:58 < eki_> anyone seen similar behavior?
17:00 < ashbb> optikalmouse: Is your above problem solved?
17:01 < brainopia> ashbb: yep, you're right
17:01 < brainopia> ashbb: sorry, for a long answer
17:01 < brainopia> anteaya: ;)
17:01 < optikalmouse> ashbb: yeah, I'm just trying to figure out what the default size of a shoes window is heh
17:02 < anteaya> brainopia, heyya
17:02 < brainopia> anteaya: heya =)
17:02 < anteaya> brainopia, how are you?
17:02 < eki_> example: http://pastie.org/241075
17:02 < anteaya> brainopia, been a long time
17:02 < brainopia> anteaya: yeah, it's been a long time
17:02 < brainopia> anteaya: i found myself a job =)
17:02 < brainopia> anteaya: and how are you?
17:02 < anteaya> brainopia, yaya good for you
17:03 < anteaya> brainopia, happy and tired,
17:03 < anteaya> brainopia, rubyfringe was fatastic and i am writing an article for a new magazine called The Rubyist
17:03 < brainopia> anteaya: wow, big congrats!
17:03 < anteaya> comes out next month at Ruby Hoedown
17:03 < brainopia> anteaya: i hope to read it =)
17:04 < anteaya> brainopia, yeah, so I am busy transribing interviews right now,
17:04 < anteaya> that would be great
17:04 < brainopia> anteaya: oh, sorry for a distraction :P
17:04 < anteaya> oh and anybody knows how I can get a hold of _why to interview him, don't be shy pinging me
17:04 < anteaya> brainopia, always a pleasure my friend :
17:04 < anteaya> :D
17:04 < brainopia> :D
17:05 < ashbb> eki_: Do you mean... radius is not radius. it seems like diameter. ?
17:05 < anteaya> brainopia, but I will go silent once again for a little while
17:05 < brainopia> anteaya: okey-dokey ;)
17:05 < anteaya> brainopia, yeach
17:05 < anteaya> :D
17:05 < ashbb> anteaya: Do you interviwe to _why?
17:06 < ashbb> Oops, Will you interview to _why?
17:08 < anteaya> ashbb: I would love to interview _why
17:08 < anteaya> ashbb: but i don't know him and I don't really know the best way to get a hold of him to interview him
17:09 < anteaya> ashbb: but I sure would like to
17:09 < ashbb> I'm looking forward the article that anyeaya interview to _why. So much!
17:10 < batasrki> anteaya: when you figure out how to get a hold of him, let the rest of us know
17:10 < anteaya> batasrki, you got it
17:11 < ashbb> Okay. When _why appear in this channel, let's ask him!
17:11 < anteaya> ashbb: ping me when it happens
17:11 < ashbb> okay!
17:11  * anteaya returns to transcribing
17:18 < eki_> ashbb, yes it looks like the radius is being halved
17:23 < ashbb> eki_: Yes. Same as on my WindowsXP. See http://pastie.org/241093
17:24 < ashbb> eki_: Shoes manual say: oval(top, left, radius)
17:26 < ashbb> eki_: but in the case of http://pastie.org/241093   radius = 50, not 100
17:27 < ashbb> eki_: So maybe bug. Which is correct, I don't know, though.... :)
17:29 < eki_> true, it's very easy to work around, just the manual or code need to be updated to be consistent : ))
17:30 < kuremmu> speaking of the manual, has anyone else had toruble with it crashing when you attempt a search?
17:30 < ashbb> eki_: yes. i think so, too.
17:32 < ashbb> kuremmu: Oh,.... I've not met that yet...  Could you show us any sample search term or something?
17:37 < kuremmu> it doesn't seem consistent on any given term. sometimes it crashes as soon as i bring up search before i can even focus the edit box
17:39 < ashbb> Umm... What do you use? Windows? Shoes revision?
17:42 < kuremmu> winxp r811
17:44 < ashbb> Oh, the same as mine....umm... Anyone who had the same accident?
17:52 < gdp> #sneakers
17:53 < optikalmouse> sneakers?
17:53 < Spads> #jackboots
17:54 < optikalmouse> #sandals
17:54 < optikalmouse> (soon enough.)
18:18 < ixx> greetings
18:18 < optikalmouse> afternoon
18:18 < ixx> good morning :)
18:18 < maplealmond> Morning
18:19 < ashbb> Morning? where are you from? :)
18:19 < optikalmouse> for para. does it string the paragraph text together with a space?
18:19 < optikalmouse> like: para "hello", "world"?
18:19 < ixx> Austin, TX, US
18:19 < maplealmond> I have no experience with Shoes, before I begin trying it out, I was wondering if someone could answer me a quick question.  I need the end user to be able to find and select files.  Does Shoes wrap around the native OS call or something?
18:20 < ixx> at Jelly <http://wiki.workatjelly.com/>
18:22 < brainopia> maplealmond: yep
18:22 < maplealmond> Great.  Now I need to figure out how, but I have the docs for that.
18:25 < kuremmu> optikalmouse no, it runs them together: helloworld
18:25 < optikalmouse> ah ok
18:25 < optikalmouse> I was under the impression from the Nobody Knows Shoes book that it added spaces
18:27 < kuremmu> optikalmouse, it may have done once, but i just tried it in r811 and got that result
18:27 < kuremmu> maplealmond look up ask_open_file in the built in manual (shoes -m)
18:30 < maplealmond> Oh shiny
18:30 < maplealmond> Thanks guys!
18:31 < ixx> shiny... awesome :)
18:31 < ixx> ff is great
18:31 < kuremmu> Did anyone read Jay Fields' latest post? He redid part of _why's Dwemthy's Array to replace some of the metamagic with module extension. I don't see any big improvement myself, but it's interesting.
18:33 < optikalmouse> module extension meaning he opened the class and added methods?
18:33 < kuremmu> does anyone know if it is possible (yet?) to rotate a gradient?
18:34 < dwtorres> Morning everybody.  I'm using build r868 and for some reason It will not let me use: require 'rss/1.0'
18:34 < dwtorres> require 'rss/2.0'  anyone have any idea why?  I get an error in the console "no such file to load -- rss/1.0.  Never had this happen before
18:34 < maplealmond> ixx: You know, I use shiny now without even thinking about it as firefly.  Everyone in my circle of friends does.
18:35 < kuremmu> i am no master rubyist, but it seems he adds the methods to the objects themselves, not the classes. i need to give the article a closer reading to be sure
18:35 < ixx> maplealmond: its a great term.  love to hear it used
18:36 < wmoxam> kuremmu: Have you seen 'ick'? You might it interesting ..
18:36 < wmoxam> kuremmu: http://ick.rubyforge.org/inside.html
18:40 < kuremmu> wmoxam, wuth the guards and maybes, at a quick skim it looks like the author is haskellizing ruby, making it more of a functional language. could be pretty handy, especially for someone with functional language background
18:41 < wmoxam> kuremmu: I agree
18:41 < wmoxam> kuremmu: the author has done a few other cool hacks
18:41 < wmoxam> kuremmu: http://rewrite.rubyforge.org/
18:41 < kuremmu> rewrite = macros maybe?
18:42 < wmoxam> kuremmu: rewrite allows you to 'open' and extend a class in a limited scope
18:42 < kuremmu> hmm
18:42 < tamalw> dwtorres: Shoes is it's own runtime, so it has it's own gems
18:42 < wmoxam> kuremmu: so if you want to modify the behavior of String, you can do it so it doesn't affect classes upstream
18:43 < kuremmu> handy
18:43 < wmoxam> kuremmu: especially for gems
18:43 < tamalw> it cannot access the same gems that your vanilla ruby install can. Now you can unpack gems in the same directory as your shoes app, or use Hpricot (included with shoes) to parse RSS feeds.
18:43 < tamalw> That is what I have done in the past
18:43 < dwtorres> tamalw:  Which is why I am at a loss why it can't call ruby's built in rss
18:45 < kuremmu> dwtorres, maybe a ddumb question but are you using Shoes.setup?
18:45 < dwtorres> I opened up shoes and rss.rb is not missing from the built in ruby dist
18:45 < dwtorres> Its not an external gem I want I want ruby's rss
18:45 < tamalw> dwtorres: Zigactly. Last shoesfest I made this: http://shoes.yapok.org/apps/funnies.rb; it should work for you
18:46 < tamalw> FWIW, I couldn't get it to work
18:46 < tamalw> (RSS in the standard library)
18:46 < dwtorres> Checking it out right now, thanks tamalw
18:46 < dwtorres> It worked for a previous build, ust don't know what changed
18:54 < maplealmond> Wait, wait, WAIT... I'm looking at visit()
18:55 < maplealmond> Does this mean I can get the shoes client to load an app over the internet?
19:04 < optikalmouse> maplealmond: wait a second now.
19:04 < optikalmouse> that sounds exciting
19:08 < maplealmond> It does.  Im wondering if I understand correctly
19:09 < ixx> funnies.rb needs links to the comic strip sites :)
19:09 < ixx> like it though
19:11 < st23am> expected the channel to be more lively today. Isnt it shoefest today?
19:14 < optikalmouse> yeah it is!
19:15 < optikalmouse> ...
19:15 < optikalmouse> not much of a party heh
19:15  * tamalw takes off clothes and goes streaking
19:15 < tamalw> better? :P
19:16 < optikalmouse> a little
19:16 < optikalmouse> put em back on though :p
19:16 < optikalmouse> I'm not sure what to create though
19:17 < optikalmouse> I'm still looking at the little examples
19:21 < st23am> im downloading linux build now
19:21 < st23am> last time I tried this it was epic failz
19:21 < ejmiller> Hi, I'm working on a nested animation and could use some advice. It works - sorta but is pretty rough. See http://pastie.org/241184
19:23 < tamalw> Is there a list of colors somewhere?
19:23 < optikalmouse> YES
19:23 < optikalmouse> it's in the manual
19:23 < optikalmouse> I think it follows the W3C CSS colours actually
19:23 < tamalw> I is searching without luck
19:23 < optikalmouse> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-color/#svg-color
19:24 < tamalw> thanks
19:31 < kuremmu> i'm having a little problem extracting functions. when i try to move the tmv function outside of the Shoes.qpp loop, things won't work. putting it in a class subbed from Shoes doesn't help. seems to have to do with containing Shoes code and not just standard ruby. snippet: http://gist.github.com/2479
19:32 < wmoxam> yay, snakes and ladders!
19:33 < kuremmu> very very early days on the prog. still trying to get the move token, etc right
19:35 < tamalw> kuremmu: http://gist.github.com/2480
19:36 < tamalw> I guess I should have tried it first
19:40 < eki_> kuremmu, you might try moving your code into a Widget... here's the sprite code I'm working on today as an example: http://github.com/eki/shoesfest/tree/master/sprite/sprite.rb
19:42 < st23am> is the linux install instructions in the manual or is that on a site somewhere?
19:44 < kuremmu> thanks, eki. haven't tried it yet but that looks like the way to go
19:47 < eki_> st23am, do you want to build from git or r811?
19:47 < st23am> git would be nice
19:47 < eki_> iirc:
19:48 < eki_> git clone git://github.com/why/shoes.git
19:48 < st23am> thanks
19:48 < eki_> cd shoes
19:48 < eki_> rake
19:48 < eki_> then add shoes/dist to your path... the 'shoes' binary will be in there
19:49 < eki_> if rake fails, you may be missing depenencies...
19:50 < st23am> rake aborted!
19:50 < st23am> Command failed with status (1): [gcc -I. -O -c -oshoes/image.o -I/usr/inclu...]
19:50 < st23am> rake aborted!
19:50 < st23am> Command failed with status (1): [gcc -I. -O -c -oshoes/image.o -I/usr/inclu...]
19:50 < st23am> opps sorry
19:50 < st23am> ah have to look for a depenency list
19:53 < ashbb> st23am: Have you looked at this: http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/shoes/wiki/DownloadShoes
19:58 < st23am> ashbb: no I had not thank you
19:58 < kuremmu> why oh why no _why? that fix he was working on must be pretty messy.
20:02 < ShoesFest> G'day from Apple
20:02 < ShoesFest> I guess we're still waiting for the new build, eh?
20:03 < st23am> k rake runs good now
20:05 < ejmiller> eki_: your sprite demo is really nice - any thoughts on how the contents of the sprite itself might be animated?
20:08 < _why> here we go
20:08 < _why> so this is the planet of shoesfest
20:09 < tamalw> Hola ShoesFest & _why
20:09 < _why> apologies around the house for my tardiness
20:09 < ashbb> Hi! We are all waiting for you!
20:10  * _why pats ashbb on the head and feeds him an open-faced shark sandwich
20:10 < ejmiller> _why: no prob
20:10 < _why> just a moment, going to sync all my latest changes to github
20:11 < _why> stellar attendance today, folks
20:12 < danielz> Hi _why
20:13 < _why> okay, now to get you some builds
20:13 < _why> hi danielz, have you been welcomed to shoes day?
20:13 < _why> cause i can do that right here if you haven't
20:13 < maplealmond> Today is shoes day?  Cool.
20:13 < danielz> I have not
20:13 < maplealmond> I guess this is a good day to start using shoes
20:14 < _why> most grievous, danielz
20:14 < danielz> :)
20:14 < _why> now, let's see where was i
20:14 < _why> oh yes, welcome to shoes day, danielz
20:15 < _why> and a very shoesy day to the rest of you sordid lot
20:15 < danielz> Thanks man i appreciate it
20:15 < _why> okay, anyone who's going to be testing today, let's hear what platforms you're on so i can get you guys builds first
20:16 < ejmiller> I wish every day could be shoes day
20:16 < danielz> I just learned of shoes today actually.  There is a link on Reddit
20:16 < ejmiller> Ubuntu 8.04
20:16 < tamalw> OS X intel
20:16 < danielz> Seems like an awesome app
20:16 < kuremmu> *yuck!* windows xp
20:16 < _why> yes well shoes is very young and obscure, so i'm certainly surprised you have heard of it all
20:17 < danielz> I'm a young and obscure guy
20:17 < ashbb> I'm using WindowsXP, too.
20:17 < maplealmond> I'm using it with OSX
20:17 < ejmiller> I'm pulling from git and will try to build
20:17 < _why> we're going to hit the one-year birthday of shoes on the last day of this month, so we're readying a very good release
20:17 < ixx> _why: actually i have been seeing shoes posts everywhere
20:18 < maplealmond> I heard about it from ages ago, but finally decided to try it after needing to code a desktop app.
20:18 < danielz> ya know what would rock.  Shoes support on the iphone :)
20:18 < ChrisColon> (hi ^^) Intel Mac, Leopard and later today when I get sleepy I'm switching to my PPC iBook
20:18 < st23am> is anyone saving a log of todays shoefest?
20:18 < _why> ixx, we try to abstain from lying on shoes day, but i appreciate what you're saying
20:18 < _why> shoes on the iphone would be tough because of ruby's memory requirements
20:19 < _why> also, pango doesn't port to iphone
20:19 < danielz> ah too bad
20:19 < cacimar> I'm adding to the text of an edit_line - how do I indicate I want a line feed?
20:19 < _why> but i am trying to build a pango-less shoes for the iphone, it's worth trying at least
20:19 < tamalw> Greetings DrErnie
20:19 < ixx> _why: heh.  well it has been coming up with topics around me at least... People looking at monkeybars (with jruby) and other solutions
20:20 < ixx> I dig the direction shoes is going
20:21 < _why> oh thankyou, ixx, well, i'm glad to have your input today on this
20:21 < DrErnie> Has anyone tried the new TextMate bundle for Shoes?
20:21 < _why> okay, let's get a windows build pronto
20:22 < ejmiller> I was able to build r873 from git on Ubuntu 8.04
20:23 < kuremmu> _why, are you planning updated versions of nks and entirety?
20:24 < ixx> _why: hd moore was putting a bunch of work on the ruby iphone stuff for metasploit... I think shoes could have some thing up though it may use something other than pango as you say
20:25 < ChrisColon> DrErnie: The Shoes bundle from jballanc on Github? I downloaded that today
20:26 < DrErnie> ChrisColon: yeah, that. jballanc just walked in, so I'm sure he'd love feedback
20:28 < ChrisColon> It's great ^^ Really helpful, especially Command+R :) And you can use the bundle menu in textmate for  a quick overview of what Shoes can do when you don't want to browse through the manual
20:29 < tamalw> It would be great if command-R didn't invoke the Ruby or Shoes menu when working on non-Shoes scripts
20:29 < ChrisColon> I don't think the new version does that anymore
20:29 < ChrisColon> I got that with the old version
20:29 < tamalw> \:D/ I'll update then!
20:30 < _why> (win32+video) http://hacketyhack.net/pkg/dist/shoes/shoes-0.r873.exe
20:30 < _why> (win32 novideo) http://hacketyhack.net/pkg/dist/shoes/shoes-0.r873-novideo.exe
20:30 < ashbb> Thx. I'll download it now.
20:31 < st23am> any shoes emacs love ?
20:32 < ixx> wow.. shoes app froze when having issue resolving in dns
20:32 < ixx> this was on the funnies.rb app btw
20:33 < ixx> thought it was in some code I was doing apparently not
20:33 < ixx> resolve-replace.rb
20:35 < jballanc> Hey all...
20:35 < ashbb> _why: Do you know anteaya?
20:35 < ashbb> _why: She joined rubyfringe and interviewed some Rubyists.
20:35 < jballanc> so for those looking at the TextMate bundle, I'm sure you've noticed the lack of templates
20:35 < optikalmouse> st23am: what are you looking for in particular?
20:35 < ashbb> _why: She would love to interview you.
20:36 < st23am> optikalmouse just curious if anyone had put a shoes.el together
20:36 < _why> that's very likely, ixx, i just rewrote all of the remote image code this week, so there's going to be quite a bit of debugging that today
20:36 < ashbb> _why: We want to read her article about you!
20:36 < anteaya> yes, i would love to interview you _why
20:36 < anteaya> i didn't want to interrupt shoesfest though
20:36 < optikalmouse> st23am: I wouldn't think so. Wouldn't it just basically be ruby-mode.el? Maybe with some Snippets?
20:37 < _why> (osx novideo) http://hacketyhack.net/pkg/dist/shoes/shoes-0.r873-novideo.dmg
20:37 < st23am> optikalmouse: most likely maybe some snippets or somethign.
20:37 < _why> (osx video) http://hacketyhack.net/pkg/dist/shoes/shoes-0.r873.dmg
20:37 < _why> those are intel builds, incidentally
20:37 < optikalmouse> st23am: which snippet package do you use?
20:37 < ChrisColon> jballanc: The one template there is was funny though. Shoes.app do end :)
20:38 < jballanc> Yeah...so I guess one of the first priorities is to provide a few more interesting templates
20:38 < jballanc> Tieg has recommended one with a Shoes.setup block...which I also agree would be good
20:38 < tamalw> There has got to be an better way to do this: http://gist.github.com/2490 with the formatting not being messed up
20:38 < _why> hi, anteaya, welcome to shoes day 2
20:38 < optikalmouse> if you think of any interesting TextMate templates I can convert them to use the Emacs YASnippets stuffs
20:38 < anteaya> thank you _w
20:38 < anteaya> _why,
20:38 < anteaya> c'mon tab
20:39 < anteaya> sorry i missed shoes day 1
20:39 < anteaya> was rubyfringing
20:39 < anteaya> looks like a good crowd today
20:41 < ChrisColon> jballanc: maybe you could also add all available styles in the shoes.app() parantheses, it's better to delete stuff when you don't need it instead of writing it from scratch I think and usually you want to change the size of the window for example anyhow
20:41 < ixx> i am confused about the dns stuff ... it was working fine earlier
20:41 < ixx> and i can do lookups on the domains from the command line
20:42 < jballanc> Yeah...there was a bit of discussion with the parens in the snippets
20:42 < jballanc> I took them out of places where they didn't seem necessary, and left them in other places
20:43 < jballanc> so, for example, oval is still "oval(X, Y, WIDTH, HEIGHT)"
20:43 < _why> ixx, you have a paste of that script around?
20:44 < jballanc> but button is "button 'text', [styles]"
20:44 < ixx> http://shoes.yapok.org/apps/funnies.rb
20:44 < jballanc> and the styles are optional
20:44 < _why> kuremmu oh forgot to say YES, i know :radius is wrong at least (needs tobe :curve)
20:44 < ixx> that is from tamalw
20:45 < jballanc> I guess we could do a progression of templates...simple app to get started, app with window size, app with setup block, etc...
20:45 < ChrisColon> yeah that would be the most convenient thing
20:47 < DrErnie> Our pizza just arrived. Wish y'all could come share it with us :-)
20:49 < _why> (osx powerpc novideo) http://hacketyhack.net/pkg/dist/shoes/shoes-0.r873-ppc-novideo.dmg
20:49 < _why> (linux i686 novideo) http://hacketyhack.net/pkg/dist/shoes/shoes-0.r873.run
20:50 < ashbb> DrErnie: Wow, thx. :)
20:50 < _why> and lastly
20:50 < _why> (source) http://hacketyhack.net/pkg/dist/shoes/shoes-0.r873.tar.gz
20:50 < optikalmouse> jballanc: link is a good one for a template since you have click or a block
20:51 < ChrisColon> Is threaded image downloading already built into this new build of Shoes or does it take longer to implement?
20:51 < _why> yep, it's all ready to go, cc
20:51 < _why> both threaded image downloading and the new threaded `download` method
20:51 < _why> these use real system threads, not ruby green threads
20:51 < ChrisColon> Do I have to do something special instead of just using image("http://blabla.com/image.jpg")? Because it isn't working for me
20:52 < ChrisColon> oh wait!
20:52 < ChrisColon> my fault
20:52 < ChrisColon> In my unholy stupidity I used the old build :)
20:52 < _why> it's not yet completely efficient and foolproof, i hope we'll uncover a wealth of bugs regarding that feature
20:54 < _why> it works similar to many browsers, placing a blank image where the remote image would go until it's loaded, then firing a repaint when the full image is swapped in
20:54 < jballanc> optikalmouse: how would that look? Maybe an independent "class MyStuff < Shoes" with a "url '/' :method"?
20:55 < ChrisColon> But it does work ^^ It even solved the crash in my Flickr picture guess game :)
20:55 < optikalmouse> jballanc: "link($1, :click => "$2")" something like that?
20:55 < ChrisColon> Thanks a lot for this, it's reeeeaally appreciated
20:55 < jballanc> ahh...snippets...
20:55 < jballanc> got it
20:56 < jballanc> I was thinking templates
20:56 < optikalmouse> OH I see what you mean
20:56 < optikalmouse> templates to get an app started, ja?
20:56 < jballanc> Right...I mean, app templates are well and good
20:56 < ixx> _why: the new resolver stuff is ready to test?>
20:56 < jballanc> but if we're going to make really big things, we'll want to separate our code into individual files, yes?
20:57 < ChrisColon> Blank images I don
20:57 < ChrisColon> don
20:57 < ChrisColon> damn, my fingers hit the enter key before I'm finished writing. Too much coffe
20:58 < ChrisColon> The blank images I can't see but that could be because I load just tiny images, maybe 2 or 3kb in size
20:58  * wmoxam tries on a new pair of shoes
20:59 < brainopia> _why: can you explain me behavior of second example at http://gist.github.com/2431 - is it expected or bug?
20:59 < jballanc> hmm...what we really need is a way to switch between the parenthesized and un-parenthesized versions
20:59 < eki_> ejmiller, oops, I drifted off into programming... I don't think I'll get into framed animation today... I'm mostly working on movement, collision detection for now...
21:00 < brainopia> we had a little chat about this before you came in and couldn't decide
21:00 < _why> all builds now listed here: http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/shoes/wiki/RecentBuilds
21:01 < ejmiller> eki_: no prob - working myself
21:01 < ejmiller> eki_: pardon my ignorance - framed animation is animating an animation?
21:02 < _why> brainopia: that's a bug, tho i'm not sure it'll be fixed by the next release
21:02 < anteaya> _why can we get that link in the channel topic so that latecomers can find it when the backscroll is devoured?
21:02 < _why> it's because slots that have a fixed :width and :height become subwindows and paint over their parent
21:03 < brainopia> _why: and over their cheldren?
21:03 < brainopia> chidlren*
21:03 < brainopia> children*
21:03 < brainopia> sorry for typos =(
21:03 <@_why> in the second example, the entire window should be black
21:04 < brainopia> _why: oh, i see
21:04 <@_why> elements are ordered from top to bottom
21:04 < st23am> just curious why no video in linux?
21:04 <@_why> so the white background is acting properly, but the black one isn't because i've got to do a bit of window merging trickery
21:04 < brainopia> _why: so background is painted on top
21:04 <@_why> st23am you'll need to download the tarball and build it with `make VIDEO=1`
21:05 <@_why> eventually, the .run will have video i imagine
21:05 < st23am> _why: excellent thanks
21:05 <@_why> brainopia yeah backgrounds are just elements, that way you can stack lots of backgrounds and borders for effect
21:05 < brainopia> _why: thx for explanation
21:06 < eki_> ejmiller: yeah, by that I just meant flipping through pre-rendered frames of animation...
21:06 <@_why> http://hackety.org/2007/08/09/pictureShoes.html mentions a bit more about that
21:06 <@_why> okay, ixx, going to investigate that script
21:06 < ejmiller> eki_: cool - mind if I play around with that sprite widget?
21:07 < brainopia> _why: i have another question, is it possible to change a color of an existing rectangle or i need to draw a new one on top of the old?
21:08 <@_why> you'll have to redraw
21:09 <@_why> but i've put that down on my bloodred legal pad
21:09 <@_why> "Shape.fill= and Shape.stroke="
21:09 <@_why> so it should be addressed today
21:10 < brainopia> ok, thx again
21:10 < kuremmu> been trying snippets, samples and stuff from the-shoebox on winxp. no surprises yet. breakthrough still won't load vying-pure (shy or github version)
21:12 < ChrisColon> _why: When images are still downloading and you close the window, Shoes crashes. And image placement is off when I display a lot of tiny thumbnails in a flow while they are still loading. When everything is finished loading, the placement is okay, other than that I wasn't able to find any errors, it's really cool :)
21:13 <@_why> is that osx, ChrisColon?
21:13 < ChrisColon> Yeah
21:13 <@_why> yeah i need to cancel downloads when the window is closed, good one
21:13 < gdp> linux Ubutu: what is the meaning of errors while compiling
21:13 < gdp> CC -o dist/shoes-bin dist/libshoes.so: undefined reference to `shoes_http_error'
21:14 <@_why> ixx: that script works on linux, remind me of your platform
21:15 < ixx> os x, leopard 10.5.4, ruby 1.8
21:15 < eki_> ejmiller: I don't mind at all, have at it : ))
21:15 < ixx> what is strange is it was working fine earlier... not sure what is happening
21:15 < eki_> ejmiller: I'm getting close to working gravity now...
21:15 <@_why> ah, ok, gdp missing something in the makefile
21:16 < ejmiller> eki_: going for a full physics model?
21:17 < eki_> ejmiller: not too detailed, just "game" physics : ))
21:18 < eki_> kuremmu:  Did you try the updated shy for breakthrough?  I got it to load vying-pure.gem on vista last night
21:19 < ixx> going to grab a bite to eat.. bbiab
21:21 <@_why> gdp: http://hacketyhack.net/pkg/dist/shoes/shoes-0.r874.tar.gz
21:22 < gdp> _why thanks , i will try
21:22 < ejmiller> eki_:looking forward to seeing it
21:26 <@_why> oh and samples/simple-downloader.rb is new, friends
21:26 < kuremmu> brainopia, _why when you add another rectangle after teh background in that buggy snippet, the second rectangle appears. if you add another background before the first rectangle too, the second rectangle still appears. apparently, background is a synonym for rectangle currently and just appears where it is invoked _why?
21:26 <@_why> it's a sample of how to use the downloader to save files and track progress
21:28 <@_why> kuremmu, yes, in a way background is synonymous with rectangle, just has different syntax and is a tiling element rather than a positioned element
21:28 < ashbb> eki_: I tried to run your breakthrough.shy (0.5.1) on WindwosXP. It works well. I can see chess board window!
21:28 <@_why> you might look at samples/simple-form.rb to see a layer set of backgrounds
21:29 < kuremmu> eki i pulled a fresh copy from the-shoebox after i installed the new build a few minutes ago and tried it. also pulled a fresh git copy
21:30 < ejmiller> _why: tried out samples/simple-downloader.rb - nice!
21:30 < eki_> ashbb, does the computer make it's opening move?  If not try ALT-D (to trigger a redraw), when I played with it last night animation wasn't working on windows (worked fine on linux)
21:30 < optikalmouse> you know what's missing from shoes? keyboard events of some sort :S
21:31 < optikalmouse> specifically, the definr example doesn't react when I press enter after entering a search term
21:33 <@_why> that's a good point
21:33 <@_why> i need some logic for figuring out the default button on a page
21:33 < ChrisColon> optikalmouse: there are keyboard events in shoes, but they don''t work when an edit_line is selected, at least on osx, copy and paste doesn't work either because of that
21:35 < optikalmouse> ChrisColon: that's weird. I would think it would take more work/code to disable copy/paste keys? hmm
21:37 < ChrisColon> I worked around it by adding a paste button to my apps which uses the Shoes clipboard function :)
21:37 < kuremmu> ashbb? do you by chance have the latest xp servicepack? i'm still on the last one pre-vista. perhaps that explains the discrepancy
21:39 < ashbb> kuremmu: Microsoft Windwos XP Professional Version 2002 Service Pack 2
21:39 < optikalmouse> ChrisColon: that's really strange because copy/paste works for me in Linux/GTK :o
21:40 < ashbb> eki_: opening move doesn't work, but alt-d works well.
21:41 < eki_> ashbb, okay thanks.  That's what I was afraid of.  the animation code is somehow broken on windows... I'll have to debug it later
21:41 < ChrisColon> optikalmouse: The osx version uses Cocoa instead of GTK, so the bug is somewhere in that code I think
21:41 < ashbb> eki_: I move white one, then nothing happen. but I do alt-d then move black one.
21:41 < gdp> _why:  shoes -v gives
21:44 < jballanc> Hey, is hungry_boids giving others problems on the newest build?
21:46 < jballanc> I have to move the "Shoes.app" block to the end to get it to work...
21:46 < jballanc> (That's the bug I mailed to the list earlier...maybe not a bug?)
21:48 < jballanc> oh, hey...when did that happen...there's a newer version of boids
21:50 < jballanc> _why: Is it expected that the "Shoes.app" block should go at the end? I realize this is an issue on OS X, but I feel like it might be a bug...maybe even one we could fix
21:50 < gdp> why  shoes -v gives /usr/local/lib/shoes/ruby/lib/optparse.rb:873: [BUG] Segmentation fault
21:51 < gdp> ruby 1.8.6 (2008-03-03) [i686-linux]
21:52 <@_why> have you installed shoes as a deb before?
21:52 < gdp> no
21:52 < gdp> i have compiled earlier r811
21:53 < gdp> and it was working
21:54 <@_why> it appears that there might be a problem with 1.8.6, i'll try building on a fresh ubuntu
21:55 <@_why> jballanc you should be able to put Shoes.app anywhere i think
21:55 < jballanc> Right...that doesn't seem to be working on OS X
21:55 <@_why> okay, i'll check it out
21:55 < anteaya> gdp: i am following the process, though I can't play along right now, when you and _why find a build that works, would you be so kind to ping me so I can get the build as well?
21:56 < anteaya> gdp: sorry i can't be more active but the deadline, she looms
21:57 < jballanc> If it's any help, I think there's something to do with shoes_load() being called from main, and then again from either "application: openFile:" or "openFile"
21:58 <@_why> ohh i think you're right jballanc, some one brought this up on the list or something
21:58 < xeugenex> hey, i'm trying to compile shoes on a mac
21:59 < xeugenex> i heard that there are some prebuilt dependencies
21:59 < gdp> anteaya ok
21:59 < xeugenex> where would those be
21:59 < xeugenex> right now it's stopping where it needs -lgif
22:01 < ChrisColon> xeugenex: http://code.whytheluckystiff.net/shoes/wiki/BuildingShoes they are in the table
22:01 < ChrisColon> building on osx didn't work for me when I tried a few hours ago though, I don't know if it's working again
22:01 < ChrisColon> Yesterday it was working allright
22:03 < xeugenex> thanks
22:03 < ChrisColon> np
22:05 < jballanc> _why: that would be me
22:12 < ashbb> Damn my windows crashed. Now rejoined.
22:13 < gdp> anteaya : It is 13.30 hrs here for me. I have to sleep , bye
22:14 < jballanc> hmmm...what's the #define if I want OS X specific code?
22:14 < anteaya> gdp: thank you and good night
22:14 < ashbb> gdp: night. see you tomorrow :)
22:14 < jballanc> is it just #ifdef SHOES_QUARTZ
22:15 < anteaya> ashbb: okay, ping me when _why posts something for linux and I will take a minute and start it up
22:15 < anteaya> ashbb, please
22:15 < ashbb> okay!
22:20 < ChrisColon> _why: Shoes also crashes when images are downloading inside a stack and you clear it, maybe there should be a method that stops all download threads?
22:22 < kuremmu> is there doc somewhere on widgets or do i need to grovel the source?
22:27 < ashbb> kuremmu: http://hackety.org/2008/06/12/martinDemellosGooeyChallenge.html
22:28 < ashbb> kuremmu: I have not read yet, though... :-P
22:32 <@_why> ChrisColon there's a cancel method for stopping an individual download
22:32 <@_why> so what i'm doing in this next build is stopping the download when its `remove` method is called as well
22:32 < ChrisColon> that's even better :)
22:32 <@_why> this will cover `clear` and the window closing any cases like that
22:35 < kuremmu> yet another wincrash
22:36 <@_why> tell me, related to images, kuremmu?
22:37 < kuremmu> no, just windows + firefox = fail sometimes
22:38 < kuremmu> i was trying to access my flicker stream for testing purposes, but i hadn't started teh shoes part yet
22:42 < jballanc> hmmm...ok...that wasn't it...
22:42 < jballanc> So, _why, I tried having Shoes not call shoes_load until it actually has the name of a script on OS X...
22:42 < jballanc> ...but the hungry_boids still don't work
23:13 < DrErnie> Yeah! I finally got TankSpank working with the latest Shoes
23:13 < DrErnie> Please help test it: http://s3.amazonaws.com:/shoes_code/public/versions/104/tankspank_v5.2.rb
23:14 < DrErnie> Warning: it is dog slow (prob'ly due to all the fancy drawin), but at least it doesn't crash :-P
23:15 < ChrisColon> wow, that *is* slow :)
23:15 < ChrisColon> it was so fast before
23:16 < DrErnie> ChrisColon: yeah, I know.  He had nice linear code, I made it all fancy math and object-oriented :-(
23:16 < DrErnie> Plus, to be fair, I have enemy tanks and bullets and such, but clearly I'm doing something several sub-optimal
23:17 < ChrisColon> I managed to get two tanks stuck together on my first try. I'm good :)
23:17 < DrErnie> I'm not even sure how to Profile it, to figure out where the slowdown is coming fron
23:17 < GitHub73> shoes: _why master SHA1-e559340
23:17 < GitHub73>  * shoes/ruby.c: store stroke and fill of shape in the style.
23:17 < GitHub73> http://github.com/why/shoes/commit/e559340c3534ee8303d85ae8183b130ba90ed287
23:17 <@_why> okay i guess brainopia left
23:18 < ChrisColon> hmm yeah the only thing I could think of would be slicing it in parts and trying them seperatly
23:18 <@_why> but his Shape.fill= and Shape.stroke= fix is in
23:18 < DrErnie> _why: hmm, maybe I can use that
23:30 < eki_> how does a fella change the direction an 'arrow' is pointing?
23:31 < paulv> I found a bug of sorts with stacks and flows that cause the X server to use 100% CPU. I'm probably doing something wrong (and in fact have a different version that works correctly), but I thought it might be symptomatic of something else? http://pastie.org/241342
23:33 < loincloth> is there a list of, say, bugs specifically in the ruby sources?
23:33 < loincloth> i'd like to try and help but i am not so savvy with C
23:34 < loincloth> i'm willing to learn, but like my rubies too :]
23:37 < ixx> _why: did you figure out what the resolver issue was?
23:38 < st23am> ok beginner here. What am I doing wrong text doesnt show up http://pastie.caboo.se/paste/241351
23:40 < ChrisColon> st23am: use @mytext instead of mytext, that changes the scope of the variable
23:40 < st23am> ah
23:40 < st23am> should have known that I know ruby better than that :P
23:41 < ChrisColon> ^^
23:41 < st23am> so mytext only had scope of local in stack right?
23:42 < st23am> ChrisColon: tryed @mytext still nothing
23:43 < anteaya> _why, I have brainopia's email,  Is there anything you want him to know?
23:43 < ChrisColon> The scope is a bit tricky sometimes, I think if you declared mytext in a parent stack and then tried to use mytext.replace it would have worked, too. So I don't think the variables are really limited to a stack
23:43 < ChrisColon> Oh, I try it out, just a sec ^^
23:44 < st23am> ChrisColon: ya my "text_field" doesnt even show
23:44 < ChrisColon> change text to para then it works
23:45 < st23am> ah did that change? reading older tutorial
23:45 < ChrisColon> mytext = para "text field"
23:45 < ChrisColon> seems so, text isn't anywhere in the manual
23:45 < st23am> ChrisColon: that fixed it.
23:46 < st23am> ChrisColon: looking at http://hackety.org/2007/08/06/yeahShoesHasJustAFewSimpleControls.html
23:47 < ChrisColon> st23am: better look at the manual and the samples that come with shoes, this post is really old.
23:47 < st23am> ChrisColon: will do thanks
23:47 < ChrisColon> the samples are probably best because they show you all the current stuff, the manual sometimes lacks behind but it is pretty current too
23:48 < loincloth> the manual search feature is essential, but can be tricky if you dont know what to search for
23:48 < jonty_> Hi just testing the samples in shoes 811 windows xp - simple-accordion doesn't work properly, the shutters slide up but not all the way and then stick eventually you just have 0.0, it used to work! can't spot why...
23:48 < loincloth> some stuff isn't surfaced through the menu
23:49 < ChrisColon> I don't use the search often. Or the manual :) I didn't even take a look at the samples. I just do everything by trial and error, that's probably why my apps are crashing so often :) I just started writing a bunch of apps after browsing through the manual for 10 minutes
23:51 < st23am> Can you include ruby modules into a shoes app ?
23:51 < ChrisColon> sure, just do your usual require. If you want to include a gem, you can do that too. Look at the simple-rubygem example
23:52 < st23am> thanks
23:52 < ChrisColon> np
00:03 < DrErnie> A much better TankSpank: http://s3.amazonaws.com:/shoes_code/public/versions/105/tankspank_v5.3.rb
00:03 < DrErnie> Well, somewhat better :-P
00:04 < DrErnie> _why: is there any way to measure how many frames per second I'm *actually* getting, vs. what I'm asking "animate" for?
00:08 < ChrisColon> it's about twice as fast now I think
00:08 < DrErnie> ChrisColon: I just changed frames per second to 20 from 10 :-)
00:09 < DrErnie> I fear it will slow down more if there's too many tanks on the screen, though
00:09 < DrErnie> Tweak FRAMES_PER_SECOND on your system and see what works well
00:09 < jballanc> Hmmm....
00:09 < ChrisColon> XD wow, then I am really good at estimating :)
00:09 < eki_> my sprite demo is starting to get a little more hairy... now includes gravity (which can be changed with ALT-i, ALT-j, ALT-k, ALT-l), the arrow keys give the sprite a little push... code here:  http://github.com/eki/shoesfest/tree/master/sprite/sprite.rb
00:10 < jballanc> Ok...so I've added a new level of confusion to the OS X boids bug...
00:11 < jballanc> I just realized that if I put a "debug" message in right after the "Shoes.app" line, then the Shoes console reports the debug message as occurring at line 208
00:11 < jballanc> line 208 just happens to be the last line in the boids script
00:11 < jballanc> However, it still claims that there is no Shoes::Boids and reports this error on line 34
00:11 < loincloth> jballanc: i got info reporting from active supports inflector at times
00:11 < jballanc> which is the first place where Boids appears
00:11 < Bluebie> howdy doodads
00:12 < tamalw> Hiya Bluebie
00:12 < loincloth> but not always, which i found even more odd
00:12 < loincloth> for the same info call, being hit in an every loop
00:12 < jballanc> yeah, here's the weird thing
00:12 <@_why> DrErnie: you can compile with debugging `rake DEBUG=1` and it'll show timings for each paint
00:12 < jballanc> If I add "debug" lines to the beginning of the "Food" class and the "Boids" class, I still get those messages on the console
00:12 < jballanc> they print after the no Shoes::Boids error
00:13 <@_why> or you can just subtract Time instances
00:13 < jballanc> and they are reported as generating from line 34...same place as the no Shoes::Boids error
00:13 < loincloth> jballanc: are you going to be merging that other tmbundle project?
00:13 < DrErnie> _why: I tried using Time instances, but I got very inconsistent results; I think the actual drawing is what was taking up time, which was happening outside the "animate" loop
00:14 < jballanc> loincloth: which is that?
00:14 < loincloth> jballanc: http://github.com/tiegz/shoes-textmate-bundle/tree/master
00:14 <@_why> i'm sure the actual drawing is what's taking up time
00:15 < jballanc> oh, yeah...sorry, I already grabbed most of the snippets
00:15 <@_why> you're right, it happens in the window's RunLoop, not in the animate loop
00:15 < DrErnie> _why: ah, that's what I thought
00:15 < loincloth> jballanc: i'm using yours right now.. i made a change to the run in shoes command.. to reference SHOES_APP_PATH instead of listing Shoes.app which i think assumes that you are looking for it in the Applications dir
00:15 < jballanc> tweaked them a bit and put them in: http://github.com/jballanc/shoes.tmbundle/tree/master
00:15 < DrErnie> _why: so, would a debug build capture that, then?
00:15 < loincloth> jballanc: cool, was thinking i would clone your project but wasnt sure if you guys were planning a new one or what
00:15 < loincloth> so far i just wanted that one simple change tho
00:16 <@_why> yep, the debug info shows time elapsed painting each slot
00:16 <@_why> still have a lot of work to do speeding things up
00:16 < loincloth> so i could run shoes build from the git repo in my spot where i keep such things
00:16 <@_why> one of the biggest things that'll help tankspank is when i go to town on image blocks
00:16 < jballanc> Is the current "Run in Shoes" not working for you?
00:17 < loincloth> jballanc: it doesn't work if you have Shoes.app not in the Applications dir i think
00:17 < DrErnie> _why: I was also wondering whether I should draw my tanks into image blocks, then 'blit' them out
00:17 < loincloth> jballanc: if you use open -a Shoes.app
00:17 < loincloth> but open -a SHOES_APP_PATH works great
00:17 < jballanc> odd...I've got Shoes.app in ~/Source/shoes and it seems to work...
00:17 <@_why> i doubt you'll gain anything just yet doing it that way
00:17 < loincloth> jballanc: hmm maybe i dunno what i'm doing
00:18 <@_why> i can address that this week, doc, since it's just crystallized in my mind a few days ago
00:18 < paulv> _why: did you see my CPU utilization bug?
00:18 <@_why> but besides that, even drawing normal shapes needs to be faster
00:18 < ashbb> DrErnie: Wow! I got the message 'Congratulations! You totally r00l!'
00:18 <@_why> paulv i don't think i did
00:18 < paulv> I found a bug of sorts with stacks and flows that cause the X server to use 100% CPU. I'm probably doing something wrong (and in fact have a different version that works correctly), but I thought it might be symptomatic of something else? http://pastie.org/241342
00:19 < jballanc> loincloth: Where are you keeping your shoes? Is it somewhere below ~/ ?
00:19 < tamalw> woot woot, got my Shoes app to a somewhat complete state: http://gist.github.com/2538
00:19 < DrErnie> ashbb: Congratulations :-)
00:19 < loincloth> jballanc: yeah, and i changed the command back to reference Shoes.app now and it seems to work fine
00:19 < tamalw> Little hackish in some places
00:19 < loincloth> jballanc: i dunno what happened to me before :\
00:20 < ashbb> DrErnie: Thx. Your tank app is awesome! :)
00:20 <@_why> paulv with 0.r873 even?
00:20 < DrErnie> _why: Okay, let me know when (and how) I should refactor my drawing.
00:20 < DrErnie> I think I'll declare victory on that note.  Enjoy! You can always grab the latest version of TankSpank from: http://the-shoebox.org/apps/43
00:20 <@_why> i will probably try to see what i can do to just speed up what you've got first of all, dr e
00:21 < DrErnie> thanks
00:21 < DrErnie> bye
00:22 <@_why> paulv: oh i see the shoes process is fine but x starts to go crazy
00:23 < paulv> hmm, 0.r873 doesn't build for me, but a git checkout from a few seconds ago builds fine. it does go to 100% with the git build.
00:25 < Bluebie> @_why: What's the rationale for having ppc and intel builds instead of one universal?
00:27 < Bluebie> Wow, what made tankspank so slow o_o
00:27 <@_why> just because the universal ends up huge
00:27 <@_why> the stub is universal
00:27 < Bluebie> ooh okie
00:27 <@_why> the net installer stub
00:28 < st23am> think I asked this earlier but, is someone going to post a log up of shoesfest? Going home and wont be able to join in in an hour :(
00:28 < Bluebie> so someone brainy could grab the ppc novideo and the intel novideo and concievably mash the binaries up together if they wanted
00:28 <@_why> i think MadX` acts as scribe
00:28 < ChrisColon> Bluebie: DrErnie said it's because of him adding fancy math and making the code object-oriented :)
00:28 < Bluebie> I'll be having to leave too for most of the day :(
00:28 < Bluebie> ooooh
00:29 < tamalw> :(
00:29 < tamalw> Bluebie: Check out the app I just finished http://gist.github.com/2538
00:29 < ChrisColon> st23am: http://shoes.yapok.org/ has the logs for ShoesFest 1, so I'm sure it will have the logs for this ShoesFest too
00:29 < st23am> got a D&D game to run :P (dorky I know but fun )
00:29 < Bluebie> seems odd that oop would have such an effect given that pretty much everything in ruby is oopy to begin with, or at least maintains the illusion
00:30 < st23am> ChrisColon: awesome thanks
00:30 < ChrisColon> np
00:31 < Bluebie> tamalw: what's this? twitter search? :)
00:32 < tamalw> basically, it searches on your keywords and updates every 10 seconds
00:32 <@_why> okay great
00:32 < Bluebie> :)
00:32 < ChrisColon> tamalw: I did something like that a while ago ^^ Good luck with it, there can never be enough twitter search apps! NEVER. Well, maybe in a few years.
00:32 <@_why> paulv, the expose events on gtk are recursing in that script
00:35 < ashbb> tamalw: Wow, I'm now coding my tiny twitter seach, too. :)
00:37 < Bluebie> _why: alert() still doesn't seem to do anything under OS-X
00:37 < paulv> _why: is there a reasonable fix for that?
00:39 < Bluebie> Shoes has gotten shockingly slow, even in the manual. Confusing
00:39 < tamalw> Bluebie: alert() was working for me on r873
00:39 < loincloth> alert/ask both seem disabled for me
00:39 < loincloth> os x also
00:39 < tamalw> ashbb: call it the teenie-tiny-twitter-tweet-tumbler
00:39 < Bluebie> I'm on 873 and tried the 'Run Code' button in the manual's example alert..
00:40 <@_why> it's true, shoes day really snuck up on me, so we're testing with a pretty unstable build today
00:40 < Bluebie> the manual sure is looking a lot better now though :)
00:40 < loincloth> hey so i saw that another twitter client app does this to trigger submitting a new status on enter: if @i_say.text[-1] == ?\n ... i must say i couldn't figure out how to do it with keypress.. odd that hitting enter seems to select all the text in the box, at least on os x
00:40 < loincloth> anyway is that about the way to do it?
00:40 < loincloth> if i wanted enter on a input field to trigger basically clicking a button or some other element?
00:41 < ashbb> tamalw: Oh pretty good! We are teenie-tiny-twitter-tweet-tumblers! Yay!
00:41 < Bluebie> still I think for these apps to feel right on OS-X the scrolling really needs to work properly.. making it overall slower has made things less painful, but any scrolling that has much speed to it causes mac os scrolling acceleration to kick in and really mess things up :/
00:41 < tamalw> Bluebie: http://skitch.com/tamalw/t3t6/bluebie
00:41 < Bluebie> neat :)
00:44 < ashbb> _why: Shoes manual say: oval(top, left, radius)
00:44 < ashbb> _why: but in the case of http://pastie.org/241093   radius = 50, not 100
00:44 < ashbb> _why: So maybe bug. Which is correct, I don't know, though.... :)
00:45 < ashbb> _why: eki_ and I discussed before you came in.
00:45 < loincloth> weird. i guess the "if edit_line.text == ?\n" trick only works if it's actually an edit_box
00:48 < Bluebie> Richard Stallman really can't sing
00:48 < ashbb> Really?
00:48 < optikalmouse> blasphemer!
00:49 < optikalmouse> :p
00:49 < Bluebie> http://www.gnu.org/music/free-software-song.au
00:49 < eki_> ashbb, I think I saw somewhere that oval actually takes left, top, width, height (or at least width)... not sure where I saw that though...
00:49 < eki_> it's already been a long day I guess : ))
00:50 < eki_> I think maybe oval taking width, height makes more sense than radius... it seems more consistent with the rest of the shapes
00:51 < ashbb> Oh, I'll check built-in manual from now.
01:00 < Bluebie> okay, cya guys
01:00 < ChrisColon> bye
01:00 < Bluebie> good luck with legs MadX` ^_^
01:00 < EmanuelC> bye Bluebie, hi everyone else :)
01:01 < ashbb> bfn :)
01:02 < ashbb> eki_: Builtin manual is written: To draw an oval of varied porportions, you may also use the syntax: oval(top, left, width, high).
01:03 < ashbb> eki_: So I totally agree your opinion.
01:10 < loincloth> focus() does not seem to work for edit_line or edit_box for me
01:11 < eki_> ashbb, ah that must be where I saw it, I wonder if I just confused 'oval x, y, w, h' with 'oval :left => x, :top => y, :radius => r'...
01:15 < EmanuelC> guys, anyone on mac this eve? I want to check if you have a bug..
01:15 < ashbb> eki_: Yeah. Maybe _why will rewrite the part of the builtin manual soon.
01:16 < ChrisColon> EmanuelC: I'm on Mac
01:17 < EmanuelC> ChrisColon, could you try going to the manual and do a search?
01:17 < EmanuelC> put oval since everyone is talking about it :P
01:17 < ChrisColon> I did
01:18 < ChrisColon> what should I be looking for?
01:19 < EmanuelC> oh, does it work?
01:19 < ChrisColon> Yep, works fine :)
01:19 < EmanuelC> 'cause mine doesn't yield any results...
01:19 < EmanuelC> which version do you have?
01:19 < ChrisColon> hmm. any error in the Shoes console?
01:20 < EmanuelC> yep
01:21 < EmanuelC> oh, cannot do cut and paste
01:21 < ChrisColon> That I can
01:21 < ChrisColon> can't
01:21 < ChrisColon> do either
01:21 < ChrisColon> damn I'm hitting the enter key to soon again
01:21 < EmanuelC> it says Bignum too big to convert into long
01:21 < EmanuelC> and then "comparison of String with nil failed"
01:22 < ChrisColon> Are you on PPC mac?
01:22 < EmanuelC> yep
01:22 < EmanuelC> u intel?
01:22 < ChrisColon> hmm wait I sec, I will try on my PPC iBook
01:22 < ChrisColon> yeah
01:22 < ChrisColon> just a minute
01:22 < EmanuelC> I was the one always bothering why for a PPC version
01:22 < EmanuelC> :)
01:23 < ChrisColon> ^^
01:25 < ChrisColon> Do you have the link to the PPC build handy by any chance? I just downloaded intel
01:25 < EmanuelC> mine is self compiled
01:25 < ChrisColon> my ibook would die if I did that
01:25 < EmanuelC> wait a sec
01:26 < EmanuelC> hehehe, I'm so happy since I can compile
01:26 < EmanuelC> I can try stuff and debug things :)
01:26 < EmanuelC> but you are on intel, so everything is ok ;)
01:27 < ChrisColon> found the link
01:27 < EmanuelC> good, I was looking for it, but you been faster
01:27 < ChrisColon> I did a search on the irc log :)
01:28 < st23am> later everyone merry Shoesfest
01:29 < ChrisColon> bye st23am
01:30 < ChrisColon> 2 minutes downloading left, my ibook is fighting my desktop for bandwidth :)
01:32 < EmanuelC> good! let them earn what they need! ;)
01:34 < ChrisColon> okay, same error as you. no search results and "bignum to big to convert into 'long'"
01:35 < ChrisColon> It'd probably got to do with the PPC using big endian stuff
01:35 < ChrisColon> That would explain why it works on intel mac
01:35 < EmanuelC> thanks.
01:35 < EmanuelC> unfortunately it seems it'S ruby lib prob, isn't?
01:36 < EmanuelC> I'll start looking into it though
01:38 < loincloth> _why: what say you to :margin => [0,0,0,0] being significant like CSS i.e. go in the order of top, right, bottom, left ?
01:39 < ChrisColon> EmanuelC:  I don't have a clue ^^
01:39 < loincloth> _why: i keep assuming it and having moments of "oh right" and then changing code around. seems like it would be a nice detail in light of other web inspired details.
01:41 <@_why> well, i think css is totally inconsistent
01:41 <@_why> i haven't found that ordering of coordinates in other things
01:41 < loincloth> o i c
01:42 <@_why> but i'm not averse to the idea, if it turns out that beginners have come to expect that
01:42 <@_why> anyway, i think that syntax will go away
01:42 < loincloth> it's not a horrible shift
01:42 <@_why> when i merge ruby 1.9
01:42 < loincloth> o, what would one do then?
01:42 < loincloth> for similar effect
01:42 <@_why> you'll see: {margin: {top: 0, left: 10}}
01:43 < loincloth> hmm
01:43 <@_why> remembering ordering is just flawed to begin with
01:43 < loincloth> hmm i dunno about that
01:44 < loincloth> it takes some learnin but.. ultimately i think i would rather see that then "top" "left" "right" and such over and over
01:44 < loincloth> could probably make a helper to hide some of that tho
01:45 <@_why> yeah the (x1, y1, x2, y2) syntax is so prevelant throughout shoes, it would be a difficult change
01:46 < ChrisColon> _why: are you aware that search in the manual isn't working on PPC mac? EmanuelC found that out and I tried it on my PPC mac just now and it doesn't work for me either. Throws a "bignum too big to convert into long" error in the Shoes console. I searched on the mailing list and nobody mentioned it there.
01:46 < loincloth> any plans to support :padding ?
01:47 < EmanuelC> _why, as far as I'm concerned, I'm ok with your solution, maybe is better to write it down to the manual really in caps though ;)
01:57 <@_why> ohh yeah the ppc problem with the manual is an endianness thing with the ftsearchrt extension
01:57 <@_why> good one guys!
02:00 < EmanuelC> _why, thanks! is it easy to fix?
02:01 < ChrisColon> why do they even use different systems? I "heard" that big endian is better than small endian, but why don't all PC's use big endian then? It can't cost that much more to built a processor with big endian
02:03 < ChrisColon> Well, maybe it does cost more, but I don't want that to be true, so it isn't. Prove me wrong and I will pout.
02:13 < loincloth> if i want something to change the background color of the top level slot, how can i target that slot explicitly?
02:13 < loincloth> i am having scoping problems with calling background with no receiver
02:13 < loincloth> when the behavior is initiated inside some other stack or flow
02:13 < loincloth> and i mean change it dyamically, the initial setting is easy of course
02:14 < eki_> have you tried parent?
02:14 < loincloth> eki_: no sir i'll look into it
02:14 < loincloth> maybe i can do @top = self at the start of the app block ?
02:14 < eki_> I don't know what parent returns at the top level (nil?).. but you should be able to walk to the root
02:15 < loincloth> seems like it'd be simpler to just have a ref to the top somewhere rather than figuring out how much to walk
02:17 < ChrisColon> loincloth: you can put your top slot into a variable. Like @top = stack { ... }   and then you can refer to it by using @top. Is that what you want?
02:17 < loincloth> yeah sure
02:17 < loincloth> i was thinking to not have to add that superfluous stack just for this tho
02:17 < loincloth> @top = self
02:17 < loincloth> at the start of the app block
02:17 < EmanuelC> if you walk to the top using parent, the parent of the Shoes.app is nil
02:18 < ChrisColon> ah okay
02:18 < EmanuelC> (just checked)
02:18 < loincloth> EmanuelC: ok, good to know, thx
02:18 < eki_> if you're making a widget, walking is safer because you don't have to count on "@top" being set
02:19 < loincloth> hmm
02:19 < loincloth> maybe i don't even have the problem identified correctly
02:19 < ChrisColon> if @top = self doesn't work, self.contents[0] should be the top most slot
02:21 < eki_> not sure I follow that ChrisColon...
02:21 < loincloth> wouldn't contents suffer the same problem.. doesn't it work on the context of the executing block or some such?
02:22 < loincloth> i believe i have a reference to the top level.. but i am still seeing a flow one level deeper taking on the background setting
02:22 < ChrisColon> yeah you have to use @top = self.contents[0] right after Shoes.app do.
02:22 < loincloth> instead of retaining what i defined in its block
02:22 < loincloth> other nested slots are not having this problem, though
02:23 < eki_> ChrisColon:  okay, but that wouldn't be the Shoes::App at the root, that'd be the first child of the root, right?
02:23 < ChrisColon> eki_: Yeah, I thought that is what he's looking for
02:24 < loincloth> no i want the top level slot, the main flow, if you will
02:24 < eki_> ChrisColon: aaah, okay, I thought he wanted the Shoes::App at the root... misunderstanding
02:24 < ChrisColon> the first child should be the main flow
02:25 < ChrisColon> I have a lot of trouble with flows, they don't layout correctly even if I use more than necessary.
02:25 < ChrisColon> they sometimes behave like flows, sometimes like stacks. Really weird.
02:25 < eki_> loincloth, the app I'm working on has a widget that wants to interact with surrounding stacks, flows, shapes, whatever...
02:26 < eki_> I'm using parent and contents (and added a siblings method), it's a little more portable this way, because my widget can be included in any app without any special setup on the part of the app author...
02:27 < loincloth> sure
02:27 < eki_> but if you're doing a one-time sort of thing, there's nothing wrong with setting "@top" right away!  : ))
02:27 < loincloth> i don't really need that yet but it might be good design influence
02:27 < loincloth> if you have anything to share :]
02:28 < eki_> my code is here:  http://github.com/eki/shoesfest/tree/master/sprite/sprite.rb
02:28 < loincloth> sweet, thanks
02:28 < eki_> but I haven't checked in the code that detects the surrounding environment yet...
02:28 < eki_> I'm getting close : ))
02:28 < loincloth> i will have my app up on github hopefully soon
02:28 < loincloth> i want to polish a few things first tho
02:28 < loincloth> but it is basically usable
02:28 < loincloth> i've been really happy with my ability to get things done as a newbie so far with shoes, even with some bugs here and there :D
02:29 < eki_> cool : ))
02:30 < loincloth> eki_: oh cool, i glanced at that sample earlier today
02:30 < EmanuelC> loincloth, cool! :)
02:30 < loincloth> think you were talking about physics and what not
02:30 < loincloth> i'm not doing anything like that yet, but maybe someday!
02:32 < EmanuelC> my last shoes app is far from being so serious ;) old game rewritten in shoes :p
02:32 < ChrisColon> I was impressed too with how easy Shoes is to pick up. I read the manual for 10 minutes and then I wrote a Twitter search app in half an hour maybe, just by trial and error. It's really easy to get into. I think you could use Shoes to learn programming without having to learn programming for the console first, which is really great, because that turns a lot of people off
02:34 < loincloth> having all those samples is great
02:34 < loincloth> being a web guy, using some similar ideas for layout and stuff was helpful too
02:35 < ChrisColon> You can't even begin to compare Shoes to any other GUI toolkit because there is just nothing comparable to how easy it is. Adobe AIR maybe, because you can HTML + CSS for that.
02:35 < loincloth> i was pondering trying AIR actually, but thankfully remembered Shoes :D
02:35 < ChrisColon> ^^ I wrote a Shoes app to write AIR apps :p
02:35 < loincloth> haha
02:37 < EmanuelC> _why, I wanted to ask you smth: I was tinkering with Shoes Mac menus and I wanted to add system's cut,copy and paste. any advice? against it?
02:57 < ashbb> _why: I heard the problem about tab behavior on Mac in the #sheakers.
02:57 < ashbb> _why: See this: http://pastie.org/241447
02:57 < ashbb> _why: It works well on my WindwosXP, but doesn't work on cacimar's Mac.
02:58 < cacimar> _why: You mentioned tabbing wasn't on for Macs.  I wasn't sure whether to report it as a bug to get it in the works or if it was known for OS or other reasons
02:58 < ashbb> _why: Is this a but or some reason?
03:03 < ChrisColon> I'm off to bed, cya
03:03 < ashbb> Good night. :)
03:06 < EmanuelC> ashbb, works fine for me on a mac
03:06 < ashbb> Oh really? Umm....
03:06 < EmanuelC> yep
03:07 < cacimar> EmanuelC - Leopard?
03:07 < EmanuelC> yes
03:07 < EmanuelC> PPC
03:08 < cacimar> Intel here
03:09 < EmanuelC> when I press the button the texts of the 2 paara should be replaced by the one contained by the 2 edit lines, isn't?
03:10 < cacimar> The problem is, that when in the first edit_line, when you press the tab key, it neither tabs as text, nor does it go to the next edit_line field
03:10 < EmanuelC> _why, everyone, need to head to bed.. 3am here and I'll have a busy day tomorrow...
03:10 < jballanc> hmmm...must to go home. Be sure to send your TextMate template ideas to the list. Hopefully I'll have a few more out before the fest concludes
03:10 < EmanuelC> thanks to everyone!
03:12 < tamalw> Done done, cya y'all
03:24 < pvande_> 'llo guvs.
03:25 < ashbb> cacimar: Sorry, everyone looks like tired and sleepy now.
03:25 < ashbb> cacimar: I think it'll go through to _why because we wrote in this thread.
03:30 < cacimar> ashbb cool
03:31 < ashbb> :)
04:13 < optikalmouse> what time do people have? I'm at...10:10pm
04:14 < pvande_> 7:14pm.
04:16 < ashbb> 11:15am in japan
04:17 < kuremmu> ashbb, have you used teh built in manual in the new version much yet?
04:19 < ashbb> No I have never opened yet. Something good or bad?
04:21 < kuremmu> i've played with it quite a bit and it seems to crash shoes pretty often. i'lllook up one or two things then it eats itself
04:21 < kuremmu> i wondered if it was the build or mymachine troubles, since r811 wasn't quite as unstable
04:23 < ashbb> Oh, ..I'll boot it up from now.
04:34 < ashbb> New builtin manual of 0.r873 is very slow moving to link. But well not to crash yet.
04:35 < ashbb> Ooooops! It crashed!
04:37 < ashbb> _why: Need to check new builtin manual.
04:39 < ashbb> Oh, but new articles are there, e.g. Classes List, Colors List, etc. That is Cool!!
04:43 < rlv> 9:43
04:48 < ashbb> am or pm ? :-P
04:51 < optikalmouse> pm most likely
04:54 < ashbb> Thx. :)
05:12 < ashbb> Reading new Shoes built-in manual 0.r873. :)
05:15 < anteaya> ashbb: I am signing off for the night.  I will talk to you later.  Enjoy the day, my friend.
05:16 < ashbb> anteaya: okay. hava a good sunday!
05:16 < anteaya> ashbb:  I am still on Friday, I am behind you.  You are on Saturday are you not?
05:17 < ashbb> Oops, I see. Damn me. hahaha. Good night.
05:18 < anteaya> ashbb, easy mistake :D
05:40 < ShardPhoenix> hi
05:41 < ShardPhoenix> anyone there?
05:42 < ashbb> Oh hi!
05:43 < ashbb> What is your local time? :)
05:44 < ashbb> I'm from Japan. Now 12:45am
05:45 < ShardPhoenix> it's 1:44pm (australia)
05:47 < ShardPhoenix> anyway, I've been having a problem with my shoes app
05:47 < ashbb> Oh, what problem?
05:47 < ashbb> Did you get  new Shoes revision? 0.r873
05:47 < ShardPhoenix> how do I use Ruby's pause(number) function in a shoes app
05:47 < ShardPhoenix> hang on, let me check
05:48 < ShardPhoenix> nope, I'll try to upgrade
05:48 < ShardPhoenix> the problem that I was having is that when I call pause(1) for example, instead of pausing for 1 second then resuming, it pauses forever
05:50 < ashbb> Oh. I've not use pause() method. Okay I'll try. What pratform do you use? Windows?
05:50 < ShardPhoenix> yeah
05:50 < ashbb> *platform*
05:50 < ShardPhoenix> yes, Windows
05:51 < ashbb> I'm using WindwosXP.
05:52 < ShardPhoenix> hmm the new version of shoes makes my app really slow :/
05:53 < ashbb> Yeah. That is a problem we know. :(
05:56 < ShardPhoenix> oh yeah, the trouble I was having was with sleep, not pause
05:56 < ShardPhoenix> sorry
05:57 < ashbb> Okay.
05:57 < ShardPhoenix> the problem is that I have sleep inside a loop
05:58 < ShardPhoenix> hang on, let me check i'm even doing this right :p
05:59 < ShardPhoenix> yeah, the problem is that I have a loop which is basically (sleep(0.3), draw)
05:59 < ShardPhoenix> so I want to see it draw a bunch of steps instead of doing them all instantly
05:59 < ShardPhoenix> but instead it sleeps through all the steps and only updates the shoes window at the end. so you end up with an annoying delay but no "animation"
06:00 < ShardPhoenix> it's like it's taking all the "sleep"s out of the loop and putting them all at the beginning
06:02 < ShardPhoenix> it works normally in irb
06:02 < ShardPhoenix> so it might be an issue with shoes or how I'm using it
06:04 < ashbb> http://pastie.org/241492
06:04 < ashbb> It works well on my pc.
06:04 < ashbb> Could you show us your code?
06:05 < ShardPhoenix> yeah, I find it works inside the Shoes.app block but not in outside code which is called from the block
06:05 < ShardPhoenix> ok, how do I send it?
06:06 < ashbb> cut and paste: http://pastie.org/
06:07 < ShardPhoenix> ok
06:08 < ShardPhoenix> http://pastie.org/241496
06:08 < ShardPhoenix> that's the relevant part
06:09 < ShardPhoenix> it's call from a function which is called from the Shoes.app block (which only gets the click location and calls the click handler which triggers everything else)
06:11 < ShardPhoenix> the problem is that even when it's rechecking several times, all the pauses happen first and then it draws everything instantly instead of drawing step 1, sleeping, drawing step 2, etc
06:14 <@_why> yeah, using `sleep` will freeze the window
06:14 <@_why> i think i need to undef `sleep` it trips too many folks up
06:15 <@_why> shoes is more like javascript in the browser, you use timers to accomplish animation
06:16 <@_why> ashbb: thankyou for mentioning the tabbing problem on os x, i jotted it on my list
06:17 < ShardPhoenix> oh, damn. well, thanks for letting me know
06:22 < ashbb> _why: Thanks so much. :)
06:26 < ashbb> ShardPhoenix: This works well, though... http://pastie.org/241499
06:28 < ashbb> _why: Did you catch built-in manual problem?
06:28 <@_why> the problem with the links being really slow? or the bignum problem on powerpc?
06:29 < ashbb> crash on WindwosXP.
06:29 <@_why> oh no i didn't, tell me about it
06:30 < ashbb> Okay. just a wait. I'll search into log...
06:31 < ShardPhoenix> ashbb: that code just makes everything flicker in and out of existence but doesn't actually slow the game down
06:33 < ShardPhoenix> I think it's because the function calls itself until it's done so once you call it once, waiting to call it again doesn't help. but I'll try to modify that code. thanks for helping anyway
06:33 <@_why> ShardPhoenix, so you're animating some game pieces after a click, is that so?
06:33 < ShardPhoenix> yes, I'm making a bejewelled clone and I want to be able to see the pieces fall down instead of it all happening instantly
06:34 < ShardPhoenix> it's working apart from that
06:34 <@_why> okay great so you've got the math worked out, it's just getting the drawing down basically
06:34 <@_why> animation, specifically
06:34 < ShardPhoenix> yes
06:35 <@_why> let me get you a really simple animation example that might help
06:39 < ashbb> _why: I found the part of log. That is:
06:39 < ashbb>       <kuremmu> ashbb, have you used teh built in manual in the new version much yet?
06:39 < ashbb>       [ashbb] No I have never opened yet. Something good or bad?
06:39 < ashbb>       <kuremmu> i've played with it quite a bit and it seems to crash shoes pretty often. i'lllook up one or two things then it eats itself
06:39 < ashbb>       <kuremmu> i wondered if it was the build or mymachine troubles, since r811 wasn't quite as unstable
06:40 < ashbb>       [ashbb] Oh, ..I'll boot it up from now.
06:40 < ashbb>       [ashbb] New builtin manual of 0.r873 is very slow moving to link. But well not to crash yet.
06:40 < ashbb>       [ashbb] Ooooops! It crashed!
06:41 < ashbb> _why: Umm... The momentum of crash is not clear.... sorry....
06:42 <@_why> oh no trouble, that's fine
06:42 <@_why> yeah a bug has been introduced in the manual since r811
06:43 <@_why> i need to track back over the changes, a lot has happened in the last two weeks
06:44 < ashbb> Okay. I'm reading new manual. Many additional articles. Cool! Thanks. :)
06:55 <@_why> okay here we go ShardPhoenix
06:55 <@_why> http://gist.github.com/2597
06:55 < ShardPhoenix> thanks, I'll take a look
06:56 <@_why> the `click` spawns an animation that goes at 20 frames per second
06:56 <@_why> you click the circle and it moves to the next spot
06:59 < ashbb> I run it. Cool! thx.
07:00 < ShardPhoenix> thanks _why, I'll try to adapt this into how my program works currently
07:07 < Bluebie> Howdy
07:08 < ashbb> Hi!
07:08 < Bluebie> ^_^
07:08 < Bluebie> I just got myself a bread maker!
07:09 < Bluebie> I'll be painting the town Bread tonight! ^_^
07:14 < ashbb> Bread maker? You make a bread? What bread will you make?
07:16 < Bluebie> it's making White Bread right now
07:16 < Bluebie> exciting eh?
07:16 < ashbb> Yay! I want to eat!
07:20 <@_why> okay http://gist.github.com/2597
07:20 <@_why> that's a bit better
07:20 < Bluebie> Howdy _why ^_^
07:21 <@_why> that way you can just use the `tween` method to move something, without havin to clutter things up with animate blocks
07:21 <@_why> tally ho bluebie
07:21 < Bluebie> tween method! yay!
07:21 < Bluebie> alike mootools ^_^
07:21 < Bluebie> can you tween multiple properties with one call?
07:22 <@_why> it's not that advanced yet, but i'd really like to
07:22 <@_why> does mootools have a tween method?
07:22 < Bluebie> yes indeedy
07:23 <@_why> ohh i'll have to read up on that
07:23 < Bluebie> they have a morph method too which is used for tweening a hash of properties in one go
07:23 <@_why> yeah that looks good
07:23 < Bluebie> and in the latest mootools you can even tween to a css selector, which works by cloning the target element, applying the css selector, seeing which properties change, then doing the tween to the real element, a neat hack!
07:24 < Bluebie> mind you Shoes has nothing like css so that's kind of irrelevent
07:24 <@_why> wow that certainly is
07:24 <@_why> shoes has a `style` method
07:24 <@_why> style(:left => 10, :top => 20, :stroke => white)
07:24 < Bluebie> yeah, but you can't make stylesheets with selectors and classes and stuff... except for setting element defaults
07:24 <@_why> not much, but it's a start
07:24 < Bluebie> yeah, quite enough really
07:25 < Bluebie> standards bodies tend to overdo things like that
07:25 < Bluebie> *glares at xml for just one moment*
07:25 < Bluebie> we can just put styles in a hash and pass the variable around as needed, we need not select things
07:25 <@_why> i guess i always thought that people who come up with their own selector ideas and i'd let them duke it out
07:26 <@_why> right, that as well
07:26 < Bluebie> I was thinking for a while about the idea of passing 'id' and 'class' styles in to elements then recursing through the 'dom' hpricot style with xpath or what have you
07:26 < Bluebie> probably some good stealable code there
07:26 < Bluebie> but realistically it doesn't seem that useful to clone css for shoes
07:28 < Bluebie> okay here's some good feedback for that Shape#tween thingo...
07:29 < Bluebie> usually on the web we animate based on time and not frames so you can specify 50fps, and on a machine that can only handle 15 things still work just fine, but on better computers the whole thing runs really smooth and lovely
07:29 <@_why> ok, brilliant, the gtk recursion is squashed
07:29 < Bluebie> yay! ^_^
07:30 < GitHub116> shoes: _why master SHA1-2e7a116
07:30 < GitHub116>  * shoes/native/gtk.c: using GtkAllocation to determine (x, y) was inaccurate, leading to recursion when nested slots never registered as being correctly placed. (reported by paulv on shoes day)
07:30 < GitHub116> http://github.com/why/shoes/commit/2e7a1162f46189731668ef86278f52b93a994917
07:31 < ShardPhoenix> hmm, the problem with the tween for me is that I'm using a Piece class that draws itself rather than directly working with shapes. I guess I can change that but this would be a lot easier if I'd had animation from the start rather than thinking "I can add that part later" :p
07:31 < Bluebie> and of course ideally it would work for any style, not just left and top
07:32 < Bluebie> if we something.style(Some Hash) will that work right for moving and changing widths and stuff too?
07:32 <@_why> insteresting, i'm in agreement on that matter
07:32 <@_why> yes, i want `style` to change any property
07:32 < Bluebie> so on the web people tend to totally ignore fps and just use the default 50 or so fps in their framework, and focus just on 'duration'
07:33 < Bluebie> want, I see, so it does not work yet :)
07:33 <@_why> it's like anything else in shoes
07:33 <@_why> i don't pretend it's all great
07:34 < Bluebie> you could also use blocks as 'transitions' to provide the math to increment the position so people can do bounce, linear, sine curves and the likes by sticking the math in a block. Mootools is probably the best example of animation on the web... the animation stuff is very complete
07:34 < Bluebie> hehe
07:34 < ashbb> I want 'style' to change any property, too! Great!
07:34 < Bluebie> for us webby people, it's pretty impressive that shoes exists in any form :)
07:35 <@_why> yeah well i wish i wasn't the one who had to write it ;P
07:35 < Bluebie> I want #move and stuff to just be a shortcut to style(:left => ..., :top => ...)
07:35 < ShardPhoenix> is it possible to have two animate loops?
07:35 < Bluebie> well I was thinking about porting moo's animation stuff :)
07:35 < Bluebie> ShardPhoenix: sure should be!
07:35 <@_why> totally
07:35 < ShardPhoenix> cool
07:36 < ashbb> What do we use two animate loops for?
07:37 < Bluebie> different framerates, general code compartmentalization type stuff
07:37 < Bluebie> I find it weird that animate blocks are blocks at all
07:37 < ShardPhoenix> I was thinking of having one to draw rapidly while the actual game runs slower
07:38 < Bluebie> that kind of stuff doesn't make sense for me to exist in the 'dom' concept
07:38 < Bluebie> I remember thinking it was just as weird in visual basic having to add Timer things to the UI designer to make things happen like that.. doesn't feel right
07:38 < Bluebie> what benifit do we get from having it in the children?
07:39 <@_why> perhaps because html doesn't mingle well with code
07:39 <@_why> the benefit is compactness, immediacy
07:39 < Bluebie> I think the reason why vb6 did it was because it was an activex thingo and activex never was especially easy to use except in the UI designer
07:39 <@_why> you don't have to attach the blocks right there
07:40 < Bluebie> what do you mean by don't have to attach?
07:40 <@_why> image.click = proc { alert("clicked") }
07:40 < Bluebie> I'm talking about animate blocks
07:41 <@_why> animate(20, &(proc { .. }))
07:41 < Bluebie> right....
07:41 < Bluebie> but the animate call is still putting this thing in to the children of the parent..
07:41 <@_why> animate(20, &(obj.method(:anim)))
07:41 < Bluebie> I think it'd just be nicer in an MVC cleanlyness kind of psychological way to not have it be in the children
07:42 <@_why> i'm totally not into mvc
07:42 <@_why> it's too religious
07:42 < ShardPhoenix> oh sweet, I got it working (in a jerky way). now I can try to use "tween" to make it a smooth animation
07:42 < Bluebie> oh sure, so is standard compliant web design, so is pretty much anything else in computers!
07:43 <@_why> i'd say that's because programming is dominated by businesses, though
07:43 <@_why> anyway, give me some actual syntax
07:44 < Bluebie> if not getting the animate and timer blocks out of the children arrays, could we at least do something with inheritance that we can is_a?(Something) and know for sure if something is a visual element or a logical one?
07:44 <@_why> that'll convince me more than dogma, kid-o
07:44 < Bluebie> animater = animate(20) { blah }... it doesn't need to change?
07:45 < Bluebie> oooh.. I suppose the problem is if the person doesn't put it in a variable the garbage man might come and load it up on his truck
07:45 < Bluebie> hrmm :/
07:45 <@_why> http://gist.github.com/2597
07:45 <@_why> look at the `tween` code: parent.animate
07:45 < Bluebie> could we have a timers array distinct from the children array which holds an elements animate type objects?
07:46 <@_why> attaches the animation to the slot parent of the shape
07:46 < Bluebie> That is what annoyed me
07:46 <@_why> no, cause everything is an element :)
07:46 <@_why> you're just a contrarian, bloob
07:46 < Bluebie> that this method add's an animate block to the parent... newbie might be 'woah, where'd this animate come from?' and then some state changes and it disapears again like magic!
07:47 < Bluebie> could unexpectedly mess with stuff like children.length and all sorts of confusingness
07:47 < Bluebie> who here aside from _why thinks that having timers and animations as elements is helpful in any way or even just intuitively likes the idea?
07:48 <@_why> well, in the `tween` example, you end up with two children [Shoes::Shape, Shoes::Anim]
07:48 <@_why> i am not swayed by a mob, only good arguments
07:48 <@_why> and then when you `remove` the Anim it's removed as a child
07:49 <@_why> it won't disappear otherwise
07:49 <@_why> it seems very consistent to me, every element has a `remove`, less to remember
07:50 < Bluebie> fair enough if shoes is only being used to build your own apps, but I thought it was also going to be used by newbies for building their own stuff?
07:50 <@_why> i think you are so accustomed to javascript that it's throwing you
07:50 < Bluebie> no reason an animate can't still have a `remove` if it exists in a timers array instead of a children array?
07:51 <@_why> you know, i actually think you're right
07:51 <@_why> i think `children` only returns the viewable elements
07:51 < Bluebie> that's all I was saying :)
07:51 <@_why> and timers and downloads are in an extras array
07:51 <@_why> no no no it wasn't!
07:51 <@_why> you went off on mvc, come on
07:52 < Bluebie> I certainly don't think we should force mvc on people! just is nice to be able to recurse viewable stuff and stuff cleanly
07:52 <@_why> okay well i can get behind that
07:52 < Bluebie> I only used mvc as an extreme kind of 'cleanlyness' example :P
07:52 < Bluebie> neato ^_^
07:52  * Bluebie hugs _why
07:52 < Bluebie> I wonder how my bread is going o..o
07:53  * _why tousles bluebie's mussy little crown
07:54 < ashbb> Oh, worry about bread!
07:54 < Bluebie> mmmm, smells bready
07:54  * Bluebie flicks ears about and rubs her face in to his shoulder
07:55 < ashbb> sniff, sniff.
07:57 <@_why> oh this is too good
07:58 <@_why> http://gist.github.com/2610
07:59 <@_why> may need some debugging on windows and os x
07:59 < tunys> hey _why
07:59 < tunys> I just got back from OSCON
07:59 < tunys> you missed a good one
08:00 < Bluebie> Hiya tuny's ^_^
08:00 < tunys> Helloes!
08:00 <@_why> oh i had a real good oscon at home, tunys
08:01 < Bluebie> Yeah I like the comic reader. Wasn't that from last shoes day?
08:01 < tunys> _why, Home-made OSCONs are the best :D
08:02 < Bluebie> doesn't seem to load any images in OS-X
08:02 < Bluebie> oh, there's the crash
08:02 <@_why> yeah crashes on windows too :)
08:02 < ashbb> me too, crash
08:02 <@_why> i need to check in a few fixes to the dl.response.body
08:02 <@_why> works sensational on linux
08:03 <@_why> that script doesn't use open-uri, it uses the new threaded downloader
08:03 < Bluebie> aww, my walking pony sprite thing crashes 873 too :/
08:03 <@_why> so comics load in the background and window paints as it goes
08:03 < Bluebie> :)
08:04 <@_why> yeah i have to spend some serious time over the next two days getting things back in order on os x
08:04 <@_why> the downloader changes gutted the whole image system
08:04 < Bluebie> I guess I probably could compile the gtk one on os-x if I needed to and run through x11
08:05 < Bluebie> I wish gtk would make a native OS-X port already. They did it with windows..
08:12 <@_why> yeah this mootools for shoes idea
08:12 <@_why> love it
08:13 < Bluebie> well just the animation bit and maybe selectors
08:13 <@_why> yeah some things don't quite translate
08:14 <@_why> ah good, fixed the downloader crash on windows
08:14 < Bluebie> neat
08:15 < Bluebie> if you put stuff like :id in to a style will it stick around or get stripped out?
08:16 <@_why> it'll stay
08:16 < Bluebie> neat
08:16 < Bluebie> selectors wouldn't be too hard then :)
08:16 <@_why> yeah some don't like that shoes isn't strict about styles
08:17 < Bluebie> stuff them
08:17 < Bluebie> nothing should be strict about anything unless there's a large benifit is my feeling
08:17 <@_why> but i think it's essential for the intrepid hackers out there
08:17 < Bluebie> anyway they could monkeypatch a validator on to the elements
08:18 < Bluebie> it's those feelings exactly why I start my camping apps with App::Mab.set(:auto_validation, false);App::Mab.set(:output_meta_tag, false)
08:18 < Bluebie> and go around making all sorts of stuff up :P
08:18 < Bluebie> or recently, using HTML5, which is fun
08:19 <@_why> yeah i don't want to make the rules
08:19 < Bluebie> getting curious about making a patch for markaby to support html5 propperly (seriously html, not xhtml5)
08:20 <@_why> that would be lovely
08:20 < Bluebie> html5 sure is fun after spending so much time with xhtml... <!DOCTYPE html> alone is a huge relief... it makes the 'code snippets' thing in my editor unuseful to have a language that doesn't require weird stuff like long dtd doctypes :)
08:20 <@_why> conserve your precious resources, though
08:21 < Bluebie> well I'm not actually using shoes for anything at the moment, so I'm not going to start on a mootools port unless I actually have a use for it myself or it'll never get done
08:21 < Bluebie> my pony game idea fell through when it came to thinking of gameplay
08:22 < Bluebie> camping 2 is quite nice though :)
08:23 < Bluebie> annoying that the sessions doodad is still hashing in the user's ip. it worries me, but for the project i'm working on there is only one user and they definitely aren't using the kind of tech that would change ip's between requests
08:25 <@_why> yeah i need to get that out
08:25 < Bluebie> no rush :)
08:25 <@_why> august is almost here then it's camping time
08:25 < Bluebie> neat :)
08:25 < Bluebie> jud has gems and stuff so I don't really mind
08:27 <@_why> well i look forward to another rally of patches right before 2.0
08:28 <@_why> and i want to work a bit more on the PageX, PageN, PageYYYYMMDD syntax
08:28 < Bluebie> yeah, that's interestingness
08:29 < tunys> OSCON had some great swag...
08:29 < tunys> I even had my own :D
08:29 < Bluebie> I like how rails does those things in /url/:thing/:other_thing... insulation from regexps is always a nice thing indeededly
08:30  * tunys points his OpSource laser pointers at Bluebie's forehead
08:31 < Bluebie> o..o
08:31  * Bluebie looks like an indian
08:32 < Bluebie> ruby didn't feel slow until the day I ported ruby code in to regexps... heh
08:33 < Bluebie> then ruby felt very slow
08:33 < Bluebie> wikipedia says _why coined the name for tumblelogs, which I now have one of. kinda nifty
08:35 <@_why> i also coined the phrase "a gundible journey"
08:36 <@_why> which has long been the only form of greeting in the merchant marine
08:36  * Bluebie looks suspiciously at _why
08:37 < Bluebie> is Gundible from the Bectionary?
08:37 <@_why> really it's used by lumberjacks and falconeers, mostly
08:37 < Bluebie> Whats it mean?
08:37 <@_why> it means hello basically
08:38 < Bluebie> ooh, okay :0
08:38 < Bluebie> :)
08:38 <@_why> like if two falcon trainers cross paths: a gundible journey, sir!
08:39 < Bluebie> sir?
08:39 <@_why> before that, it was very akward for them
08:39 < Bluebie> aha
08:39 < ashbb> gundible == hello
08:39 <@_why> but now they know exactly what to say and it's amazing for them
08:39 < Bluebie> that is awesome
08:40 < Bluebie> Ooh cool! Github built my legs gem!
08:40 <@_why> see, this is why that stupid wikipedia page needs to be taken down, it's full of inaccuracies and worthless trivia
08:40 < Bluebie> __finally__
08:41 < Bluebie> what wikipedia page?
08:41 < Bluebie> "Why The Lucky Stiff"?
08:41 < Bluebie> I saw you on the Tumblelog page
08:41 <@_why> i'm referring to wikipedia as one single big spooling page i guess
08:42 < Bluebie> Sometimes when I'm bored I think of interesting falacies I could add to your wikipedia page to spruce it up. The kinds of things that wouldn't be so out of place as to be noticed and fact checked
08:42 <@_why> none of it's factual, i don't know how they decide that stuff
08:42 < Bluebie> full on innacuracies!
08:43 < Bluebie> My understanding is that bored people with lots of creativity meditate on your name in a big circle after eating a wholesome gluten free vegan meal, and see what thoughts and idea's come to them
08:43 <@_why> some folklore just spreads and has a great hold upon the minds of encyclopedia enthusiasts
08:43 < Bluebie> and then, they tell it to a lawyer while they're drunk, who writes it down for them in the most boring and difficult to read language possible
08:43 < Bluebie> finally, this is shipped to Google Books, who scans the napkin free of charge since they're in to open source and all that jazz
08:44 < Bluebie> and then, whatever people end up entering in to recapchas made of bits of text on napkins ends up being the wikipedia page
08:45 <@_why> see, if i were to make a page about you, bloob, it would have three sections: 1) oats 2) your mum's air conditioner and 3) semaphore humor
08:45 < Bluebie> having a wikipedia page is a bit like having an assasination attempt. It means someone thinks you're worth defacing
08:46 < tunys> I printed way too many TeensOnLinux.org pens...
08:46 < tunys> anyone want one?
08:46 <@_why> those three topics are relevant, succulent and very representative of who you are
08:46 < Bluebie> free shipping to australia on those, tunys
08:46 < Bluebie> ?
08:46 < Bluebie> I like in a totally paperless world, but still.. free's free
08:46 < tunys> Yeah, I'll cover the shipping
08:46 < tunys> just /msg me your address if you want one
08:46 < tunys> _why, want one?
08:47 <@_why> you can just deposit it between the cushions on your sofa tunys and it'll make its way here
08:47 < Bluebie> I'm not worth defacing yet. It would be marked for deletion, and then some vegans would mediate on the idea of deleting a person from existance, and then their collective Ommmmmmmmmm would be interpreted by a neural network, whose output would be judged by a baysian classifier, whose output would be fed in to a lawyer, who pushes the button, and then poof, some time 60 years after my death, they get around to deleting the article about me
08:48 < tunys> _why, I'll be sure to do that
08:49 < Bluebie> but then 63 years after my death, someone will make a stub article about me!
08:49 < Bluebie> and so continues the circle of beurocracy
08:54 < Bluebie> I don't get why 'the sum of all human knowledge' needs to delete articles about people who aren't some level of celebrity
08:55 < Bluebie> tunys, that video is terrible. I can barely hear you
08:55 < ShardPhoenix> the main reason is verifiability
08:55 < tunys> Bluebie, Well I didn't tape it :P
08:55 < Bluebie> You can totally ask my mum!
08:55 < ShardPhoenix> if you're not famous, it's hard to be sure anything in the article is true
08:55 < Bluebie> Seriously, I exist!
08:55 < Bluebie> and if you are famous, it's hard to be sure that anything in the article is true
08:56 < Bluebie> Until a new breed of monkeys is born which is obsessively compulsed to fact checked, wikipedia is the anonymous spray paint on the train station wall.
08:56 < Bluebie> "Bob's gay"... maybe.... maybe.
08:56 <@_why> lies are so easily spread, i'm with blue, i don't think verifiability is possible whatsoever
08:57 < Bluebie> No no, you aren't with me, I'm big on genetically engineered monkeys
08:57 < ShardPhoenix> you can't verify that something is absolutely true, but you can verify that people think it's true
08:57 < Bluebie> or people.. same difference
08:57 < Bluebie> but peopel think it's true as soon as they read it on wikipedia
08:57 < gdp> I just joined, where is the latest source for linux
08:57 < ShardPhoenix> whereas articles on unknown individuals/things tend to turn into misleading vanity articles (this can happen sometimes anyway but it's nice to try to keep a lid on it)
08:57 < Bluebie> github, always the latest
08:57 <@_why> oh gdp, hey
08:58 < gdp> why hai
08:58 < ShardPhoenix> if it's something at least a few people have heard of then there's at least a decent chance that someone will give the article a reality check at some point
08:58 < Bluebie> articles on anything at all tend to mutate in to misleading oppinion pieces about how open source beardy people feel about something anyway
08:59 < Bluebie> it's not like regular peopel contribute to wikipedia
08:59 < ShardPhoenix> I find wikipedia more accurate than most easily accessible sources
08:59 < gdp> _why dont know the subtle diffs between hey,hai,hello etc
09:00 < Bluebie> yeah, some people know stuff about stuff, but are they more likely to say "bleh, wikipedia's crap" and walk away, or learn go learn textile or whatever it is and rewrite the article?
09:00 < Bluebie> I think the former, unless their beards are incredibly knowledgable and lusterious.
09:00 < ShardPhoenix> at least they can rewrite it if they want to
09:00 < Bluebie> yes, but on the other hand, so can I! Mwa ha ha ha ha
09:01 < ShardPhoenix> if the media or some geocities site (which is all there used to be online) is wrong then there's nothing you can realistically do about it
09:01 < Bluebie> you can complain about it on your BLOG
09:01 <@_why> or on angelfire
09:02 < ShardPhoenix> anyway people ragging on wikipedia are mostly just trying to be more-cynical-than-thou anyway I find
09:02 < Bluebie> you can post it to Facebook with the subtext 'This is such bullshit'
09:02 < Bluebie> yeah, i'm pretty cynical
09:02 < Bluebie> I blame you, IRC users
09:02 < Bluebie> every last one of you perverse in some way
09:03 <@_why> you don't have to be cynical to see how serious wikipedia takes itself
09:03 < ShardPhoenix> that's because it *is* serious
09:03 < Bluebie> too serious
09:04 < ShardPhoenix> why bring other people down because they care about something more than you do?
09:04 < Bluebie> wikipedia is a social experiment
09:04 < Bluebie> a very interesting one
09:04 < Bluebie> but it sure isn't an encyclopedia
09:04 < Bluebie> with an encyclopedia, you know whose biased views you're getting
09:05 < ShardPhoenix> ugh
09:05 < tunys> Well it's not like you'll ever use any once source exclusively in a real research project
09:05 < ShardPhoenix> I guess some people just don't get it
09:05 <@_why> hey i'm just speaking from the viewpoint of someone who can see how erroneous his own page is, that's all
09:06 < Bluebie> maybe you should encourage people to deface it more
09:06 < ShardPhoenix> all these hyper-wiki-skeptical views just don't jive with the actual quality of wiki articles on major subjects (sure, some obscure stuff is a bit negelected/half-assed)
09:06 < tunys> Wikipedia is a good place to start
09:06 < Bluebie> in creative subtle ways
09:06 < Bluebie> until all the subtle changes add up in to something so unbelievably that it looses any informational value at all and becomes a joke and gets marked for deletion?
09:07 < Bluebie> obscure stuff doesn't exist on wikipedia because they delete it, unless it's a component of a linux distribution
09:07 <@_why> oh that smarts
09:07 < Bluebie> I think also, _why, if you request wikipedia take down your page, they do so with much viggour.. but my way's funner
09:08 < ShardPhoenix> there's plenty of stuff on wiki so obscure you can harldy find it anywhere else
09:08 < Bluebie> name one thing which isn't open source software which is obscure and on wikipedia and not marked for deletion
09:09 < Bluebie> I seriously don't think there's one thing
09:09 < Bluebie> I'd be impressed if there is though!
09:09 < ShardPhoenix> tons of mathematics
09:09 < ShardPhoenix> by obscure I mean something that you wont' find in any printed encyclopedia
09:09 < Bluebie> it just annoys me so much that wikipedia deletes obscure stuff... surely the power of a wiki and terabyte drives is that we can have the obscure stuff too and it causes no harm at all
09:10 < Bluebie> it doesn't make Wikipedia, The Book any thicker, it doesn't make search slower if it's done right
09:10 <@_why> good question, let's see if there's a "picky picnic" article on wp
09:10 <@_why> oh and katsuhito ishii
09:11 < ShardPhoenix> I'm not a big fan of the so-called "deletionists" either. I figure as long as you can provide reliable proof that something exists, and as long as there's a chance that a random person might be interested in it enough to help maintain the article, it should probably be ok
09:11 < Bluebie> though it might make http://wikipediaondvd.com/ take up a few more discs, totally worth it
09:11 <@_why> okay he has a page but it's like nothing
09:11 < Bluebie> why should I have to prove something? why is the burdon of proof on me?
09:11 < Bluebie> prove it's wrong
09:11 <@_why> no judith supine
09:11 < Bluebie> or delete your danged christianity articles
09:12 < ShardPhoenix> dude, the burden of proof is on the person claiming somethign
09:12 < Bluebie> why?
09:12 < Bluebie> it doesn't make sense to me
09:12 <@_why> you have to admit though, shard, that wp favors internet subjects
09:13 <@_why> i mean meow wars is interesting, but three pages of it?
09:14 <@_why> it's as sheltered as the folks behind it, basically
09:14 < ShardPhoenix> well yes, but that doesn't stop non-internet subjects. the humanities definitely aren't written on in quite as much detail just yet but the thing about a wiki is that there someone can always fix it
09:14 < Bluebie> it boggles my mind that the article on wikipedia for Compiz is very nearly as long as the one on Camping
09:14 < Bluebie> that is so unbalanced
09:14 < Bluebie> ShardPhoenix: my complaint is that the someone seems more interested in Compiz
09:15 <@_why> to be far, the page on drowning looks accurate and the picture is perfect
09:15 < Bluebie> AAAND that I have to learn wikitextcodetilewhatever to edit an article much
09:15 < Bluebie> aaand that the burdon of proof is on me
09:15 < ShardPhoenix> that's because there isn't that much to say about camping without turning it into a how-to guide
09:15 < Bluebie> even though clearly things are rarely prooven or cited on wikipedia and often untrue
09:16 < Bluebie> that is a pretty good drowning picture O_o
09:16 < Bluebie> okay, fair enough
09:16 <@_why> read the talk page bluebie, the girl in the picture talks a bit about how they got that harrowing shot
09:16 < ShardPhoenix> besides, weren't you complaining about how wikipedia isn't paper, and now you're complaining about how much "e-paper" is wasted on subjects you don't care about?
09:17 < Bluebie> I'll leave wiki alone for now, that is a danged good article
09:17 < Bluebie> ShardPhoenix: A how to guide would be pretty cool!
09:17 < Bluebie> that seems like it'd fit inside the definition of 'the sum of all human knowledge'
09:18 < ShardPhoenix> well, they have a separate site for guides
09:18 < ShardPhoenix> (wikibooks)
09:18 < Bluebie> I just want you to have a look at this section in particular: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compiz#Included_plugins
09:18 < ShardPhoenix> hasn't been as popular though
09:18 < Bluebie> "Zoom: magnifies a part of screen"
09:18 < ShardPhoenix> the problem with including it in the main encyclopedia is that it's a lot more subjective and likely to provoke edit wars than at least trying to stick to facts
09:18 < Bluebie> "D-Bus: D-Bus interfacing"
09:19 <@_why> oh man that is rich
09:19 < ShardPhoenix> plus it kind of violates wiki's impersonal writing style
09:19 < Bluebie> "Move: window moving" I like that one especially
09:19 < ShardPhoenix> otherwise you can end up like Knol with it's tooth-grindingly condescending article style (compare the wiki and knol articles on diabetes for example)
09:19 < Bluebie> Resize is almost as good as Move
09:20 < Bluebie> Why is this on wikipedia? At most it deserves to be a stub if held to the standards of everything else. But it's not, because it's a part of linux presumably
09:21 < Bluebie> linux stuff gets diplomatic immunity
09:21 < ShardPhoenix> it "deserves" to be as long as people want to make it (assuming they stick to factual information)
09:22 < Bluebie> this is pretty bad too
09:22 < Bluebie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table
09:22 < ShardPhoenix> although you could argue that that plugin list isn't notable, if it's the kind of information that people looking at that article in the first place want to find, then it probably belongs there
09:22 < ShardPhoenix> what's wrong with it?
09:22 < ShardPhoenix> just a disambig page
09:22 < Bluebie> Seriously, table... wouldn't Table (furniture) be an excelent default? why is there a disambig page for this?
09:22 <@_why> this conversation needs to go on the road in front of a live studio audience
09:23 <@_why> bluebie ripping on wikipedia and shard the shameless apologist, insisting there is a reason
09:23 < Bluebie> Oh yeah, "Wikipedia Might Suck or Maybe Not" - The Vodcast
09:23 < ShardPhoenix> how often are people going to be *looking up an article* about physical tables compared to logical ones?
09:23 < ShardPhoenix> (as opposed to just using the things)
09:23 < ShardPhoenix> most people already know as much as they care to about physical tables
09:24 <@_why> are you active on wp, shard?
09:24 <@_why> like what's your stake in this?
09:24 < ShardPhoenix> a little, I've helped write like 2 articles
09:24 < Bluebie> me too :)
09:24 <@_why> i mean you have a real devotion
09:24 < ShardPhoenix> I don't think it's perfect but I think a lot of the objections and petty or just wrong
09:25 <@_why> can you understand mocking it at all?
09:25 < Bluebie> philosophically wrong very much so
09:25 < Bluebie> Wikipedia is a great idea
09:25 < ShardPhoenix> especially given how amazingly good of a resource it is for general knowledge
09:25 < Bluebie> in every way great
09:25 < Bluebie> in practice, well it's not quite the same
09:26 < Bluebie> I think this google wikipedia competitor will be interesting
09:26 < ShardPhoenix> yes, I "understand" mocking it (especially given some of the more silly talk-page discussions) but I think wiki-hating is more a stupid internet fad/trend among the sneering "internet upper classes" (ie 4chan, SA, et al) than anything very grounded in reality
09:26 < Bluebie> they have set up a thing with the newyork times so you can use comic strips from the newspaper in the articles to illustrate points
09:26 < Bluebie> sounds like Wikipedia with the seriousness replaced with funness
09:26 <@_why> the tedium of the discussions on wikipedia goes beyond what you can find anywhere, i think
09:26 < Bluebie> disapointing to see google trying again to expand their monopoly on the internet though
09:27 <@_why> i mean the two guys arguing about the term "feral cat colony"
09:27 < Bluebie> yeah the discussions are fun
09:27 < tunys> Yeah, so... http://is.gd/14pl
09:27 < Bluebie> I'm bored of this anyway
09:27 < arcatan> ha, 4chan belonging to internet upper classes
09:27 < Bluebie> back to shoes
09:28 < Bluebie> My grandfather ran a shoe store
09:28 < Bluebie> He never gave anyone a discount, He was tight
09:28 <@_why> bluebie i'm serious, you need to do a podcast "this week on the compiz wikipedia page"
09:28 < Bluebie> no sales, nothing
09:28 < ShardPhoenix> I just don't really see how that stuff is such a big problem. no-one is forcing you to read the talk page
09:28 < Bluebie> just shoes
09:28 < Bluebie> hmm <_<
09:28 < tunys> A shoe store ran my grandfather
09:29 < Bluebie> Maybe if I can convince Visa to sponsor the podcast, otherwise, I feel lazy about the idea
09:29 <@_why> i'm not saying it's bad, shard, i find it extremely entertaining, i can't live without it
09:29 <@_why> but i don't trust wikipedia
09:30 < ShardPhoenix> well fine, you probably shouldn't trust anything you read (except maybe peer reviewed journals, and who seriously reads those on a regular basis unless they're writing for them themselves)
09:31 < Bluebie> with Visa money I could convert the house in to a studio with several cameras and a tricaster all in HD so I can make 320x240 mpeg vodcasts too with special guests like Ysangkok and Phoeba Wright
09:31 < Bluebie> big comfy couch, some horses that walk in front of the video stream frequently, would be excellent
09:31 < Bluebie> paint the walls with LED's
09:32 < tunys> I'd like the color of my walls to be controlled by LEDs
09:32 < ShardPhoenix> I just don't think wikipedia is, on average, any *less* trustworthy than the news, or blogs, or any other easily accessible internet source that you might rely on for non-critical information
09:32 < Bluebie> LED's are great
09:32 < tunys> eventually it would become economical to do so
09:32 < Bluebie> it'd pretty easy to get those tri-color led's and use them as downlights for mood lighting type things
09:32 < tunys> You could make the house a different color for company
09:33 < Bluebie> I think wikipedia is about on par with the guy down at the pub
09:33 < ShardPhoenix> probably easier to use electronic paper when it gets a bit cheaper/better
09:33 < Bluebie> hehe
09:33 < Bluebie> is e-paper in colour?
09:33 < ShardPhoenix> well, that's obviously wrong but I can't stop you thinking that
09:33 <@_why> that guy at the pub sure knows his compiz plugins
09:33 < ShardPhoenix> I don't think it is yet
09:33 < Bluebie> Wouldn't the e-paper break if anything bumped on the wall and smashed the little vials?
09:34 < Bluebie> _why: yeah, that beardy guy
09:34 < ShardPhoenix> I don't think it's that delicate? I don't know I haven't used any yet but it seems pretty cool
09:34 < Bluebie> looks a bit like stallman
09:34 < Bluebie> He gets all drunk and starts singing offkey about free software
09:34 < Bluebie> the e-paper is little things suspended in a fluid inside of tiny glass vials stuck on to a surface from my understanding
09:35 < Bluebie> like a plasma tv screen but with things that spin around inside instead of gas lights
09:35 < Bluebie> anyway if you used colour e-paper the whitest wall you could get would be like a dark grey :P
09:36 < Bluebie> and if you're going to have a wall with subpixels you might as well watch the football on it
09:36 < Bluebie> and in that case the wall might as well just have a plasma screen mounted to it
09:36 < ShardPhoenix> yeah but there's cost to consider :p
09:37 < Bluebie> plasma screens are a lot cheaper than a wall of colour e-paper!
09:37 < ShardPhoenix> I guess I'm imagining a MYSTERIOUS (near) FUTURE where e-paper is just paper, only more e :p
09:37 < Bluebie> I can imagine it now.. "Oh no I tore the wallpaper! Now I have dead pixels!" :(
09:38 < Bluebie> probably better to go for nano bots that like painting
09:38 < Bluebie> oooh man
09:38 < Bluebie> imagine the fractals nanobots could paint!
09:38 < Bluebie> _why: you getting this? nano bot fractals? this stuff is gold! And public domain too! :D
09:39 < Bluebie> I hereby release all words I have ever spoken ever in to the public domain
09:39 < Bluebie> And also the ones in to the future for a week
09:39 < Bluebie> henceforth 'SPOKEN' shall mean either verbally or typed
09:40 < Bluebie> I like how in law you can redefine words to mean new things
09:40 < Bluebie> we should do that more often in casual conversation
09:41 < ShardPhoenix> I'm gonna redefine every word to be swear word
09:41 <@_why> i hope these nanobot fractal guys are designed to look like the paint tool, floating against the wall
09:42 < Bluebie> hehe
09:42 < Bluebie> that'd be neat
09:42 < Bluebie> ooooh
09:42 < Bluebie> e-paper walls could be fun with nanoness
09:42 < Bluebie> if they all broadcast signals and interact and display some aspect of the signal
09:43 < Bluebie> like neurons interacting with one and other though electrical 'chemicals'
09:45 <@_why> yeah it'd be like a soccer stadium of nanobots waiting on the wall to flash color cards at you
09:45 <@_why> if they can paint individual molecules that would be the best
09:45 < Bluebie> yes
09:45 < Bluebie> I don't know if you can paint molecules?
09:46 < Bluebie> isn't paint more a coloured thing you stick in front of your molecules so you can't see them anymore?
09:47 <@_why> because the whole sky could be painted in the likeness of rabbit fur or brushed metal
09:47 < ShardPhoenix> by the way, have there been any messages on the shoes mailing list lately? I've signed up but haven't got anything yet. I was wondering if it was inactive or if I've stuffed something up
09:47 <@_why> if you have a small enough brush, yes
09:47 < Bluebie> what about sunlight? I'm a fan of it
09:47 < Bluebie> ShardPhoenix: You stuffed something up
09:47 < ShardPhoenix> Bluebie: yes, you can't paint molecules because paint is molecules
09:47 < ShardPhoenix> damn
09:47 < ShardPhoenix> maybe hotmail is deleting it without letting me know
09:47 < Bluebie> don't send blank messages to the mailing list
09:48 < ShardPhoenix> I didn't
09:48 < ShardPhoenix> as far as I know
09:48 <@_why> shard, did you get an intro e-mail that said hi
09:48 < ShardPhoenix> yes, I got "welcome to the shoes mailing list"
09:48 < Bluebie> _why: Do people really need to cc you or is that only for your own curiosity?
09:49 < Bluebie> ShardPhoenix: Someone who doesn't like you must have forged a blank email to the list from you
09:49 < ShardPhoenix> *gasp*
09:50 <@_why> the cc prevents spam
09:50 < Bluebie> aha!
09:51 < Bluebie> I think I finally found a use for my Arduino
09:51 < Bluebie> I can use it to make a fake finger which presses the start button on the breadmaker early in the morning
10:04 < jballanc> bah!
10:04 < jballanc> I can't remember how to specify the source for a gem in Shoes.setup
10:04 < jballanc> is it just :source => 'url_here'
10:06 < Bluebie> I have bread! ^_^
10:07 < Bluebie> jballanc: Isn't it just source("whatever")?
10:41 < Bluebie> hmm, corpsey
11:01 < jballanc> Phew...just made it
11:01 < jballanc> updated the TextMate bundle...if anyone's still listening in...
11:01 < jballanc> It's still officially ShoesFest, right?
11:02 < Bluebie> howdy jballanc
11:03 < Bluebie> for two more hours, sure
11:20 < Bluebie> sooo jballanc.... just you and me here I suppose
11:20 < Bluebie> in this quiet seemingly deserted room built out of walls made of people
11:20 < Bluebie> How's your day? :)
11:20 < Bluebie> Hi onigiri_!
11:20 < onigiri_> hi
11:21 < EmanuelC> changed identity like clark kent :p
11:24 < Bluebie> o..o
11:24 < Bluebie> so are you a girl or a perv?
11:26 < jballanc> oh...hey...dozing off at the keyboard
11:26 < jballanc> How's was your ShoesFest Bluebie?
11:27 < Bluebie> Yes, my shoesfest
11:27 < Bluebie> it's aaaalll mine
11:27 < Bluebie> I own it
11:27 < EmanuelC> bluebie, emanuel is a male name here
11:27  * Bluebie holds it protectively
11:27 < EmanuelC> :)
11:28 < Bluebie> it was mysterious perhaps because i've only been here a few hours!
11:32 < Bluebie> My grandma has a much bigger much flatter much higher definition television than me o_o
11:32 < Bluebie> I helped her buy it today..
11:32 < Bluebie> it has a great many deal of 'P's in it!
11:40 < ashbb> Well require 'hpricot'
11:40 < ashbb>  
11:40 < ashbb> class Comic
11:40 < ashbb>   attr_reader :rss, :title
11:40 < ashbb>  
11:40 < ashbb>   def initialize(body)
11:40 < ashbb> Oh sorry! mistook, copy and paste
11:41 < Bluebie> Howdy ash ^_^
11:41 < ashbb> Hi onigiri!  ONIGIRI is Japanese word rice ball, isn't it?
11:43 < ashbb> Bluebie: hehe, sorry. I'm now coding my tiny twitter search for ShoesFest app.
11:44 < Bluebie> neat
12:12 < ashbb> For ShoesFest 2nd. I posted a tiny twitter search r0.1 into ShoeBox.
12:12 < ashbb> http://www.the-shoebox.org/apps/68
12:12 < ashbb> Half of code are diverted from twitter listener, though. :-P
12:12 < ashbb> Enjoy!
12:13 < Bluebie> :)
12:14 < ashbb> Thx. :)
12:14  * Bluebie hugs ash
12:14 < Bluebie> you seem nice
12:17 < ashbb> Thanks. As same as @tamalw. We are teenie-tiny-twitter-tweet-tumblers. Yay!
12:20 < ashbb> Hey everyone! Last spurt, please. For the end of this ShoesFest.
12:20 < Bluebie> yah?
12:24 < ashbb> Continueing for 1.5 more hours. Right?
12:24 < Bluebie> I think more like half hour?
12:24 < Bluebie> anyway _why seems to have fallen asleep on his keyboard, most user's corpsed... so it seems pretty over to me
12:27 < ashbb> Oh, ... okay. almost over now.
12:27 < Bluebie> I'm just going off the london clock on my iPod O_o
12:29 < ashbb> London Sat 11:28 http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/
12:30 < Bluebie> ooh you're right, utc gives an exta hour, guess daylight savings stuff
12:31 < ashbb> :)
12:32 < ashbb> But you are right. almost everone looks like sleeping...
12:33 < ashbb> Hey MadX. Are you there? Still continue logging?
12:34 < EmanuelC> hey guys, sorry if I was idle lately...
12:34 < EmanuelC> need to go.. do you know if there will be another shoes fest soon?
12:34 < Bluebie> it's alright :)
12:34 < Bluebie> I think this is the last one for now :)
12:34 < Bluebie> the shoes days were about getting the release out
12:35 < EmanuelC> yep, I know, but it's so fun :)
12:35 < Bluebie> though early on _why was saying he'd pop around irc fortnightly anyway, so we can always have fortnightly fun anyway if he's still up for that
12:35 < EmanuelC> and this one was almost impossible for me to attend to
12:35 < EmanuelC> ]oh ok, I guess I should start using IRC more
12:36 < EmanuelC> I always resort to mail first :)
12:37 < Bluebie> oh, no, i'm wrong, the fortnightly thing was indeededly a bug day thing
12:37 < Bluebie> though on the mailing list only two weeks were really discussed in detail
12:38 < Bluebie> yeah me too, I missed most of this one, was out buying grandma a tv and groceries and stuff
12:38 < Bluebie> now she has a bigger, flatter tv than I do, and it has many more 'P's which supposedly makes it better also
12:39 < EmanuelC> hehehe
12:39 < Bluebie> makes me feel a bit poor that both of my aunts, my uncle, my grandma, and cousin all have those fancy new tv's
12:40 < EmanuelC> well, I don't even have one ;)
12:40 < Bluebie> well that is very good
12:40 < Bluebie> I don't know how these people can go and spend thousands on a tv
12:40 < Bluebie> crazytown
12:40 < EmanuelC> yep, a beamer I can understand :)
12:40 < Bluebie> I can't
12:41 < Bluebie> cars are rediculous
12:41 < Bluebie> is there any good reason why cars cost tens of thousands new?
12:41 < EmanuelC> nope
12:41 < Bluebie> they seem like nearly pure profit
12:42 < EmanuelC> bluebie, sorry but need to go and feed gf :) we have to go out for lunch together...
12:42 < EmanuelC> see ya soon
12:42 < Bluebie> cya
12:46 < Bluebie> Aha! I just thought of a design for my tumblog!
12:49 < ashbb> tumblog... blog?
12:50 < Bluebie> a form of blog
12:50 < Bluebie> blogs are more a traditional long article type thing
12:51 < Bluebie> tumblogs are kind of half way between blogs and twitter... mainly made of little snippets, often entiries lack titles and are just a picture, a video, a bit of chat log, stuff like that
12:51 < Bluebie> take a look at tumblr.com and soup.io
12:53 < ashbb> Wow, sounds good! I'd like to read your tumblog. :)
12:53 < Bluebie> well.. it's very new and unfinished.. http://ism.creativepony.com/
12:54 < Bluebie> wikipedia baselessly claims our very own _why came up with the name tumblelog/tumblog
12:55 < Bluebie> as soon as I get the design looking original and interesting I'll be ditching wordpress and redirecting to ism :)
12:56 < ashbb> Now I'm looking at http://ism.creativepony.com/  Cool!
13:05 < Bluebie> if you want something with more than three pieces of content, there's my wordpress blog http://creativepony.com/journal/
13:11 < ashbb> Oh, your shadow hose pic changes every access!
13:13 < Bluebie> heh
13:13 < arcatan> blaa blaa blaa
13:14 < Bluebie> it used to change every time it was scrolled off screen, but I stripped it back to avoid making the user download much scripting
13:14 < ashbb> Hi arcatan!
13:21 < arcatan> i missed the fest
13:21 < arcatan> but i didn't miss the debuty
13:24 < ashbb> Yeah! You made a debut on ShoesFest! :)
13:35 < Bluebie> okie, now my tumblog is looking more interesting!
13:39 < ashbb> Bluebie: Good drwaing! :)
13:39 < Bluebie> ^_^
13:39 < Bluebie> http://img.skitch.com/20080726-tuncd3uwbdgqfhipxgmtm2dk72.png
13:39 < Bluebie> it's a bit old
13:43 < ashbb> Oh, another drawing. Beautiful (^^)
13:44 < Bluebie> same one but not inverted :P
13:46 < ashbb> Oh, I see, inverting. cool. d(>_¥ )
13:53 < ashbb> Anyone, make your debut?
13:53 < ashbb> Now Saturday, 26 July 2008, 11:53
13:54 < ashbb> Crawling to a close...
14:00 < ashbb>   
14:00 < ashbb> Okay.
14:00 < ashbb> Current UTC (or GMT/Zulu)-time used: Saturday, 26 July 2008, 12:00:08
14:00 < ashbb> Thanks everone. This is end.
14:00 < ashbb> See you next ShoesFest. Bye!